2002 Citroen Saxo VTR from UK and Ireland - Comments

And I would take everything Parkers say with a pinch of salt anyway. It's a rough guide, as Citroen have said themselves 98bhp, not 100bhp, and the torque figure isn't 100ft lbs either. So that explains their extra 0.1 of a second and couple of mph extra on book times anyway...

"So you're saying an 8 valve VTR has more torque than a Clio turbo diesel and that's why you can pull away from one on a slip road??? Are you having a laugh? Do you even know how much torque turbo diesels kick out? Even the older 80bhp model dCi kicks out 136 lb ft of torque compared to the 98bhp model VTR's puny 97 lb ft. The better 98bhp version of the Clio kicks out 148 lb ft of torque. 148 compared to 97... hmmm, which is better do you think?"

A 98bhp VTR actually has 100 lb ft. I never said a VTR has more torque than the Clio, but then again it doesn't need all that torque because it's the lighter car! The Clio has a lot more weight! It needs that amount of torque to compensate for its weight.

With my R6 at 30mph with a Ferrari 360, the 360 has got more torque, but it's not the one that will be pulling away is it? Why is that? Cause the bike is lighter! It's a balance between WEIGHT/power/torque/gear ratio, and the VTR is more impressive then the heavy sluggish diesel Clio.

"The Metro and Swift aren't as aerodynamic, which means that they don't have good top speeds and the gearing limits them to 115mph ish each, but upto 100mph they would still be quicker than a VTR. Are you forgetting that a VTR runs out of puff at 80mph as well? Any car with less than 100bhp isn't going to be impressive over the ton, so why is the VTR any different?"

Have you been in all 3 cars? How do I know the Metro and Suzuki are not so quick to 100mph? I will tell you it's called aerodynamic drag. I Drove a Metro and even as low as 40mph the drag is horrible, they're good 0-60 cars the Metro GTi and Suzuki, but that's where it ends. The Saxo VTR is heavier and handles wind speed much better, giving it better midrange pull. It is quite obvious the Suzuki and Metro run out of puff at 80mph with a 110mph top speed. The VTR has got a lot higher top speed of 132mph, VTR starts to run out of steam at about 110mph at the end of 4th gear.

"Explain to me why a Lotus Elise 1 series with 118bhp has a top speed of 126mph, but the VTR has a higher top speed according to you, despite being less aerodynamic and heavier."

Gearing. Gearing on the VTR is quite long, e.g. 63mph in 2nd, 90mph in 3rd and having more weight helps at speeds above 100mph, the VTR would be more stable and less drag. I've got a video of me doing 132mph, if you don't believe a VTR can hit that speed, or just type "saxo vtr 130mph" on youtube.

When I had the Saxo remapped, it was putting out 96lbs ft of torque before, and then 110 lbs ft after. The bloke said 96lbs ft was more than he expected as they usually aren't so close to what the manufacturer says.

As for the Clio. How do you know the he was trying to race? If you're in 4th and he's in 2nd and he floors it, I don't care if he's got 4 passengers in his car, he's still coming past you.

Chances are he was in 4th or even 5th and not bothered like 99% of drivers.

If you're sure that he was racing you, then I apologise and take everything I say back because I know nothing, like everyone else. Thanks.

"When I had the Saxo remapped, it was putting out 96lbs ft of torque before, and then 110 lbs ft after. The bloke said 96lbs ft was more than he expected as they usually aren't so close to what the manufacturer says."

Oh I see so you're now saying manufacturers lie! 100lbs ft it is in BLACK & WHITE on many websites.

"As for the Clio. How do you know the he was trying to race? If you're in 4th and he's in 2nd and he floors it, I don't care if he's got 4 passengers in his car, he's still coming past you."

It's a 1.5 Clio diesel, not a Evo 8. Why are you making the VTR sound like it's really slow when it is not. I been in 1.8 turbo diesels before with more torque than the Clio, but they're still not as quick as the VTR. Diesels are generally heavier than petrol cars, and the Clio is no exception. The only generally quick Clio's are the 172/182 and the V6. A Saxo VTR has power everywhere in the rev range, more at 4500 rpm but even at 2000 rpm it's got a strong pull; that is because it's so light it moves the car pretty quick. You just have to accept this and move on and buy a petrol car next time if you want performance.

Open 2 windows and compare and see yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyH_BCFZw_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRnxNrYjUnM

You can even let the Clio start at 40mph if you want cause the VTR is so much faster, oh that VTR in that video is the 90bhp mk2 version.

"Have you been in all 3 cars? How do I know the Metro and Suzuki are not so quick to 100mph? I will tell you it's called aerodynamic drag. I Drove a Metro and even as low as 40mph the drag is horrible, they're good 0-60 cars the Metro GTi and Suzuki, but that's where it ends. The Saxo VTR is heavier and handles wind speed much better, giving it better midrange pull. It is quite obvious the Suzuki and Metro run out of puff at 80mph with a 110mph top speed. The VTR has got a lot higher top speed of 132mph, VTR starts to run out of steam at about 110mph at the end of 4th gear.

Gearing. Gearing on the VTR is quite long, e.g. 63mph in 2nd, 90mph in 3rd and having more weight helps at speeds above 100mph, the VTR would be more stable and less drag. I've got a video of me doing 132mph, if you don't believe a VTR can hit that speed, or just type "saxo vtr 130mph" on youtube."

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Neither answer is adequate given that the VTR does not do 132mph according to any site. I could just as easily say the Swift and Metro do 133mph with no proof except for me saying I got it on my sat nav, and oh look the VTR is slower again.

If you look at just book times the VTR does at most 120mph according to Parkers, the Metro Gti does 116mph according to Rover... 4mph difference and that is not using Citroen's own top speed which was more like 117mph...

Then we have the Swift which has a book top speed of 114mph so only 6mph at most difference. How can someone complain for this amount of pages about people downplaying their cars potential, only to pretend like two other cars are slower than they are?

Gearing is far too convenient a way of explaining the Elise. It uses the PG1 gearbox, which is the same gearbox that the MG ZS180 uses, and that has a top speed of 139mph. The gearbox is capable of a lot higher speeds, but 118bhp is not enough to achieve them, same for a VTR, only it's 20bhp down with worse aerodynamics. Assuming that the VTR does have long gears to give a higher than normal top speed, this would actually cause the 0-60 time to be slower! The VTS may get a higher top speed with the VTR gearbox, but its acceleration drops as well, which suggests that you are wrong somewhere.

"Oh I see so you're now saying manufacturers lie! 100lbs ft it is in BLACK & WHITE on many websites"

No I'm telling you what the bloke said. And I have it on paper that it was 96lbs ft. So believe what you like.

I only got my Saxo remapped because it felt too sluggish below 4000rpm. After that the acceleration is acceptable.

Now as for the Clio, I do agree that your Saxo is quicker in general. But you aren't understanding what I'm saying, which is. A diesel Clio in 2nd gear will pull better than a Saxo in 4th gear at 30mph. I'm not making your car out to be slow, I'm just being realistic.

The links in the video above prove which car is quicker, the Saxo, yes. But try doing it when both cars change at 3000rpm each time, and then see what is faster. That is what I am trying to explain.

Surely the VTR in that video is in second gear when he is doing 40mph, not fourth like you claim you were when you pulled away?

"I only got my Saxo remapped because it felt too sluggish below 4000rpm. After that the acceleration is acceptable."

You must have had a write off (a skip put back on the road). My VTR's power is fantastic around town, even as low as 1500 rpm. Stop being anti Saxo.

"Now as for the Clio, I do agree that your Saxo is quicker in general. But you aren't understanding what I'm saying, which is. A diesel Clio in 2nd gear will pull better than a Saxo in 4th gear at 30mph. I'm not making your car out to be slow, I'm just being realistic."

No it wouldn't. Even at 30mph in 4th gear, the VTR would pull stronger than a diesel 1.5 Clio in 2nd, LOL did you watch the acceleration in that video of the Clio 2nd gear? It was terrible! I cannot believe you said that a Clio would pass a VTR with 4 passengers in it. Only one Clio that out paced me and that was the Clio 182, and it took up to 65mph for it to pass, so no 1.5 diesel Clio is gonna pass me unless I let him. END OF TOPIC!!

Assuming things again I see. My car wasn't a "skip put back on the road". It was a 3 year old car bought from a dealer with 21k miles on it. It was in perfect condition.

I've had a look on UKCAR and on there, there are a few 1.5 Clio variants. The quickest is 106bhp taking 11.1 0-60, which appears to be the same model as in the link above.

A few facts:

Clio 1.5dCi 78bhp version.

Maximum torque

(DIN)185.0 Nm (136 ft·lb) (18.9 kgm)

@ 2000 rpm.

Clio 1.5dci 106bhp version.

Maximum torque

(EEC) 240.0 Nm (177 ft·lb) (24.5 kgm)

@ 2000-2500 rpm.

Saxo VTR.

Maximum torque

(DIN) 135.0 Nm (100 ft·lb) (13.8 kgm)

@ 3000 rpm.

So in 4th at 30mph - 40mph and approx 1700 - 2200rpm?

Which car is going to pull better at those revs?

Feel free to work out the lbs ft per ton figure. You'll find that it's in favour of the Clios.

I'll say no more.

The U tube video shows 130 on the speedo, which is gonna be less than 120 realistically! All this time with everybody arguing against the fact that a Saxo VTR will do 130 and this is just proof of that fact! Not only did it not do 130, but the speed in which it was accelerating top end was sluggish at best, and again proves what everybody has been saying - that a 90/100 bhp car ain't no rocket, and on that video it looked very poor!

"Assuming things again I see. My car wasn't a "skip put back on the road". It was a 3 year old car bought from a dealer with 21k miles on it. It was in perfect condition."

The exterior might have looked OK, but the engine wasn't. Sounds to me you got 21k thrashed miles, you should of test driven it before buying it.

I already said the Clio has more torque OK. What you don't understand is weight, torque and power work together. From a 30mph roll, weight is the 1st thing that comes into play, then it's torque, then power.

The Clio doesn't have enough BHP to overcome its weight, and the torque wouldn't help either. I have drove heavy turbo diesels and I know what it says on paper and being on the road are completely different. The turbo diesel I drove had about 170 ft lb of torque, but it would not out pace my VTR cause the VTR was so light. There's no point in replying cause you can't win, you can try try try all day long, but you're not gonna get the better of someone who know's his stuff, you might as well give up.

"I already said the Clio has more torque OK. What you don't understand is weight, torque and power work together. From a 30mph roll, weight is the 1st thing that comes into play, then it's torque, then power.

The Clio doesn't have enough BHP to overcome its weight, and the torque wouldn't help either. I have drove heavy turbo diesels and I know what it says on paper and being on the road are completely different. The turbo diesel I drove had about 170 ft lb of torque, but it would not out pace my VTR cause the VTR was so light. There's no point in replying cause you can't win, you can try try try all day long, but you're not gonna get the better of someone who know's his stuff, you might as well give up."

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Do you even realise that BHP is Torque multiplied by RPM? You don't sound like you know your stuff from that post I just quoted, quite the opposite.

A Saxo VTR in 4th at 30mph is going to be slow, there are no two ways around this and to be honest I don't quite know where the Clio diesel argument came into all this.

You still failed to account for why the Saxo has a better top end speed than a 1 series Elise given that the gearbox doesn't limit the top speed, and you also seem to have ignored that book figures between the top speeds of the VTR, Swift Gti and the Metro Gti are only a couple of MPH apart.

Why don't you just give up, because I'm always right and you can't prove me wrong because I'm a better driver than you, and one time I raced a unicorn and even that couldn't keep up, and he was using NOS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_P4Wt93ooY&feature=related

Proof that a Saxo VTR can do 130mph... on the speedo! Lets knock off the 10% that this is almost certainly overreading by.. =117mph top speed after going flat out for what felt like a lifetime.

And look at how slow the needle moves, to quote a certain someone.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

How is that fast?