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Comments: 1-15, 16-30, 31-45, 46-60, 61-75, 76-90, 91-101
It's people always buying this Japanese junk that's killing big three.
I'm 19 and am the proud owner of a 1998 Ford Crown Victoria. It's safer, better built, and in my opinion better looking than any ugly spaceship-looking Honda.
If more vehicles were constructed with body-on-frame construction and rear-wheel-drive, I believe there would be far less reliability complaints.
Big Three needs to go back to their body-on-frame cars and quit building cheap Japanese wannabees!
If anyone wants to argue about the reliability of a Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car, go ahead but those little Japanese cars can't hold up to the streets of NYC or police duty like these cars. Just look it up. There was a big safety and reliability issue with these front-wheel-drive econoboxes not being able to take the abuse of a taxi and not being near as safe in a crash. So once again body-on-frame, rear-wheel-drive is tried and true, and the Japanese will never get that!
"The reason the big 3 are in trouble is because they overpay workers, think they can skimp consumers on the quality they are looking for in a vehicle, overcharge them and now it's costing them BIG"
A MAJOR misconception. High fuel costs and a recession are hurting U.S. auto makers, not product quality. Except for Hyundai no import manufacturer has the confidence in their products to offer the same warranty as Ford, GM and Chrysler.
For the 4th straight year, the highest rated car in reliability in the world is a Ford (the Fusion). In a survey of very high-mileage vehicles featured in the October 2007 issue of Consumer Reports, the longest running vehicle with no engine or transmission repairs was a Ford (Ranger truck) with 488,000 trouble-free miles. The one featured with the LOWEST overall miles in that article was a Honda.
Ad hype leads to many urban myths. One of the biggest myths is that U.S. auto companies build less reliable cars than Japanese companies. Not so.
You have your opinion and I have mine. As the owner of both a domestic and import vehicle, long-term ownership costs for my import were far less than that of my domestic car.
Consumer reports are sometimes biased in that they encourage consumers to "buy American," so they get higher reviews.
My '96 GMC Sonoma pickup did last me 225K miles but was nickel and dimed every step of the way. I actually kept my truck serviced and odd things went wrong with it. As soon as I had it out the shop for one thing, something else was falling apart on it. Cheap plastic materials were used inside and pieces began falling off my dashboard for no apparent reason. I'm sure I could've put a down payment on another vehicle with the amount of money I put in repairing that wreck on wheels.
My 1987 Nissan Maxima on the other hand gave 20+ years of reliable service. Even after the car was 20 years old NOTHING was ripped, torn or falling off the dash of my car. Only routine brakes, alignment, tune-up, timing belt, tires and oil change service was done on the car. The biggest irritation was my sunroof that leaked during a heavy ran or a run through the car wash.
I used my car on a 120 mile commute 3 days a week and the car NEVER left me stranded. I can't say the same for the Sonoma, which left me stranded several times, leaving constant doubt in the back of my mind everytime I drove it.
Ford Fusions have not been in production long enough to determine long-term reliability or ownership costs, so that is a poor example to use. I do however see MANY Honda Accord, Civic and Toyota Camry, Corolla models on the road constantly that are 15 years old or more. I see few Ford models on the road that are over ten years old. GM models are better, but not by much, and let's not even talk about Chrysler.
All models from the Big 3, typically with the exception of trucks and SUVs have poor resale values. That is not the case with the Japanese Big 3. The Detroit Big 3 sunk their own ship by mass manufacturing poor quality vehicles using little or no quality controls, then charging a hefty price tag. My uncle purchased a 2006 Cadillac DTS brand new, he wanted to trade the car in earlier this year with 23K miles and was told the trade in value was a mere $25,000!
The Big 3 all deserve to be shut down due to their mismanagement of money, overproduction, badge-engineering and high prices. Sorry to burst your bubble, but high gas prices played only a small part in their failure. Sales have slipped across all model lines for the Big 3. I could see if it was only trucks and SUVs only, but that is not the case. They deserve NOT A PENNY of the taxpayers money. I don't buy the crap coming off their lines anyway!
Also, if the Big 3 were so confident in their products they would not need to offer such a long warranty. I did not purchase an extended warranty beyond the 3yr./36K warranty when I bought my Maxima in '87 and a similar warranty for my 2004 Sentra. NEITHER had major issues even long after the warranty expired.
As for comparing a Ford Crown Vic./Mercury Grand Marquis/Lincoln Town Car to Honda Accord or Toyota Camry, it's like comparing apples and MILK. They're in completely separate classes.
Crown Vics are billed as taxi and police interceptors, while Grand Marquis and Town Cars are marketed in the luxury segment.
Honda and Toyota market cars that are economical, dependable and for those who are not auto-enthusiasts.
Any vehicle with side impact and front impact airbags is a safe car. So yes, Ford big cars are safe, but they are designed for a completely different market than are Hondas and Toyotas.
When shopping for a Honda Accord, few people will cross shop for a Mercury Grand Marquis in deciding which vehicle to purchase.
I haven't seen anyone comparing Crown Victorias with Accords. That would be like comparing a Mercedes to a Yugo. The Crown Vic is light years ahead of any Honda. The Accord should be (and has been) compared to the world-class Fusion. In every comparison the Fusion has come out ahead. My family has owned imports and domestics. No domestic ever required a major repair, including several that went over 250,000 miles, and no import (including a Honda) ever made it to 100,000 miles with the original engine or transmission.
As for "nickle and diming", our current domestics are 8 years old, 6 years old and 2 years old. Our TOTAL expense for all three in the past 8 years has been a whopping $17.
A comparison was made between Ford's large cars and Honda models, otherwise the latter would never have been mentioned on here.
Crown Vic and Grand Marquis offer little by the way of standard options, and the option are getting fewer each year. For the price I would pay, I'd pick a Honda over the Ford each day.
Despite what you say about the Fusion coming out atop in all comparison tests, is not true though that is what you would like to believe. In fact, Honda was the best selling model in the U.S. 15 consecutive years and as recently as 2001, where are those stats for the Fusion. The Fusion DOES NOT EVEN RIVAL an Accord nor Civic for annual U.S. sales. You're one of those I can imagine who believes, "A Honda can go 200K with no problems." Not true, if the car is not maintained it will fall apart like any other.
I know from experience that U.S. automakers nickel and dime consumers and they want my money to bail them out, haha, puhhhhLEASE! I hope they fail so they can quit turning out hunks of junk every year at inflated prices.
"Crown Vic and Grand Marquis offer little by the way of standard options, and the option are getting fewer each year"
The Crown Vic and Grand Marquis come with virtually every conceivable option you can imagine standard, and Ford has offered MORE equipment, not less, on recent models. Only leather and a moon roof are major options on these cars. And I still can't imagine how a comparison can be made between a large, smooth riding rear wheel drive luxury vehicle such as a Crown Vic and a rough-riding, tinny little front wheel drive transportation appliance such as ANY Honda. That is like comparing a Mercedes to a Chevy Aveo.
I've had past experience with Honda. That's why I now drive Ford and GM products. If Honda doesn't have the confidence in its products to match domestic's warranties, and owners have to replace transmissions on a yearly basis, I'll stick with domestics even if GM and Ford go out of business and I have to buy them used. Considering that my family got 325,000 miles and 18 years of trouble-free service out of a Ford, and just sold a 32-year-old Buick with 277,000 trouble-free miles, I don't worry about domestics wearing out. We could just keep driving our 54-year-old Pontiac. It should be good for another century.
"The Crown Vic is light years ahead of any Honda."
Hahahaha! You must be joking! The Crown Vic does not come with nearly as many standard options as the line-topping Accord, Odyssey, Ridgeline and probably even a Civic. Crown Vics are for people who like things simple and basic. The owners usually are not technologically savvy at all. I do give the Crown Vic many points ahead of Honda as far as comfort is concerned, other than that, they can't touch the hem of a Honda's dress.
I'd like to see a LIST of the "standard options" that ANY Honda has that the luxurious Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis DON'T have standard. They come with power brakes, power steering, automatic, air, cruise control, tilt wheel, power windows, power locks, power mirrors, power seats, CD player with MP3 capability, rear window defroster, a better warranty and a plush, quiet and comfortable interior.
Just WHAT comes "standard" on a Honda that is NOT standard on a Marquis??
It's obvious the commenter has never even looked at a Crown Vic or Marquis, let alone driven one. These are luxury sedans, not basic transportation. The Honda is comparable to the Focus, but certainly not a Crown Vic or Gran Marquis. You can't compare large luxury cars to cheap basic transportation appliances.
We're still waiting for that huge list of standard features that Hondas have and the luxurious Mercury Marquis don't. Something tells me it will be a LONNNNNGGG wait!!
"It's obvious the commenter has never even looked at a Crown Vic or Marquis, let alone driven one. These are luxury sedans, not basic transportation. The Honda is comparable to the Focus, but certainly not a Crown Vic or Gran Marquis. You can't compare large luxury cars to cheap basic transportation appliances."
I have not driven a Crown Vic or Grand Marquis and will NEVER have the desire to do so. Secondly, unfortunately, I have looked at those gas guzzlers and wish they were off the roads so I'd no longer have to see those dreadful monsters. I'm not sure about luxury. I think more along the lines of Mercedes-Benz, Lexus, Acura or even Lincoln when I think of luxury, Ford or Mercury just dosen't fit the bill. Accord models come standard with A/C, power windows, door locks, power mirrors, keyless entry, bucket seating, front and side impact airbags and more. The features listed are all that I look for in a vehicle. Besides, Crown Vic, Grand Marquis are at the top of the line for their respective brands so it would be utterly stupid not to offer plenty of standard equipment. Besides, Hondas are far more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly. Crown Vic and Grand Marquis both have a high risk of catching fire and burning on impact. That's what I look for when I talk about safety!
Also, all the options you listed for the Crown/Grand, come standard on ALL 2008-2009 Accord models maybe with the exception of the seating (which can be upgraded to a firm, supportive leather seating surface) which is no big deal. The majority of those options may also be had on a Civic. It's sad a Honda is competitive with a Ford. Also, Honda sells far more Civics and Accords than Ford does Crown Vic (which is why sales have been relegated to fleet) and Grand Marquis together. So I will let the sales numbers speak for themselves as far as what the consumer is looking for.
"I have not driven a Crown Vic or Grand Marquis and will NEVER have the desire to do so".
Typical import fan reasoning. That's like saying "I have never eaten ice cream, and I never will, but I KNOW what it tastes like". I test drive DOZENS of vehicles before I buy one. I drive Japanese and domestic vehicles. That is why I currently own 2 GM vehicles and 1 Ford vehicle. They have a better warranty, more standard equipment, ride better, drive better and are a far better value. As a mechanic I feel very much qualified to make such a judgment after driving many different vehicles.
I don't care for large cars either, though our family has owned a number of Lincoln Town Cars. I hate to burst the bubble of commenter 03:03, who (obviously) is not very savvy about domestic vehicles, but Lincoln IS a FORD. The Town Car is basically a Crown Victoria with $20,000 and snob appeal attached.
When it comes to sales, I am quoting from an article in this morning's paper regarding the U.S. auto industry"
"Ford outsold Nissan, HONDA, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Mitsubishi, etc. by about a MILLION AND A HALF vehicles last year in the United States.
Ford's quality of vehicles is the best in the world, as rated by J.D. Power.
Ford sold about a MILLION F-series trucks last year; people DO want big vehicles.
The Fusion hybrid gets SIX MPG BETTER than the Camry hybrid.
Alabama, Tennessee, Texas and Mississippi all allowed foreign manufacturers tax abatements (bailouts) to build in their states.
The Detroit Three are NOT the only ones asking for money."
And I am quite sure the "it catches fire" argument will go over big with my former neighbor, whose HONDA ACCORD caught fire in his carport and destroyed their home. That probably affected his decision to replace the Accord with a Ford Fusion.
As a mechanic I feel very much qualified to make such a judgment after driving many different vehicles.
The one domestic model I owned was crap and would be hard-pressed to spend my hard earned money on another.
"They have a better warranty, more standard equipment, ride better, drive better and are a far better value."
As a consumer you are allowed to state your opinion but it is just that, an opinion. Also, as far as resale value is concerned maybe that's correct. That is why a 2-year old, low mileage Cadillac DTS is worth half its original price today. Don't say it isn't because my uncle wanted to trade his in and was told it would only be worth $25K!
"The Town Car is basically a Crown Victoria with $20,000 and snob appeal attached."
Town Car is not stripped down, I would pick a Town Car over Crown Vic., simply because Crown Vic's are too cheap and offer few OPTIONS. AND, neither has had a major redesign since 1998, I like domestics because they keep their bodystyles up-to-date at least.
When it comes to sales, I am quoting from an article in this morning's paper regarding the U.S. auto industry"
"Ford outsold Nissan, HONDA, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Mitsubishi, etc. by about a MILLION AND A HALF vehicles last year in the United States.
Your quoting is still ineffective. Ford sales large trucks, SUV's, etc. and is the king of badge-engineering. Also, for owns a stake in Volvo and Jaguar and others which are likely included in total sales.
"Ford's quality of vehicles is the best in the world, as rated by J.D. Power."
This too is just what it is, an opinion.
"Ford sold about a MILLION F-series trucks last year; people DO want big vehicles."
They come in many different configurations unlike most models of cars. Something would be wrong if they weren't selling that as the minimum amount annually.
"The Fusion hybrid gets SIX MPG BETTER than the Camry hybrid."
A Camry will outlast a Fusion by at least a decade if well cared for. Accord was rated in latest consumer reports as having a 78 while Fusion scored only 77.
"Alabama, Tennessee, Texas and Mississippi all allowed foreign manufacturers tax abatements (bailouts) to build in their states."
Rightfully so. Tariffs for shipping would be outrageous and cars would be far more expensive than they are if they were shipped from the home country of manufacture. It's only fair.
"The Detroit Three are NOT the only ones asking for money."
They are the only ones begging for money. They are bygone companies and should accept the facts. They all should scale back car production and only manufacture trucks.
"And I am quite sure the "it catches fire" argument will go over big with my former neighbor, whose HONDA ACCORD caught fire in his carport and destroyed their home."
Wow! One instance. He was probably another who assumes that reliability in a Honda = maintenance free.
"That probably affected his decision to replace the Accord with a Ford Fusion."
I wish him luck. I will be sticking with Honda and Nissan, I will only buy from the big three if I ever need a heavy-duty pickup for hauling and nothing else. Imports just last longer and are more dependable than domestic makes!
"because Crown Vic's are too cheap and offer few OPTIONS"
Please STATE WHAT "OPTIONS" a Crown Victoria does NOT come standard with that ANY HONDA DOES!! I've asked for some precise listing of equipment (which, incidentally, I DID bother to look up and compare, so I KNOW the Crown Vic is far better equipped) but so far all we get are meaningless statements with no supporting data. Opinion matters very little. Verifiable data and personal experience carry lots of weight. I've had experience with Honda. One of our Fords lasted over 220,000 miles longer than the Honda. My Dodge lasted 140,000 longer than the Honda and our Buick lasted 177,000 miles longer. That's why our cars are all now domestic and will continue to be even if we have to buy used ones.
And the resale argument simply does not hold up. If you pay 5 grand MORE for a car, drive it 4 years and sell it for 5 grand more than a comparable domestic, you are STILL EVEN. You have saved NOT ONE CENT. I ran a purchase price comparison on Civics and Focuses for a friend of mine. They were identically equipped. After three years the Focus resale value leaves you AHEAD by $1600. My friend bought the Focus. So would I.