2004 Toyota Prius T3 from UK and Ireland - Off Topic Comments

Sorry pal, ethanol is not the only answer to our problems. I live in Minnesota and even here we know that there is no way that ethanol can supply our country with enough fuel. I think the number one state on this issue knows more than you. sorry.

"We would not be dependent on middle east oil. I'm sure you've heard of it, it's the reason 9/11 happened among other things."

What the hell are you talking about?

I never said ethanol was the only solution, it isn't, but it's a start. And by the way, ethanol can be made from a lot more products other than corn, including many kinds of grasses, berries, apples, almost any kind of fruit.

"Biodiesel, in its current state, is a scam as it costs more energy to produce it and cars/trucks using get LESS gas mileage and have REDUCED engine life. So your 13 mpg Tahoe suddenly becomes an 8 mpg Tahoe that generates more pollutants (less efficient engine), less power, and more dependence on oil"

*Sigh* The Tahoe doesn't RUN off biodiesel! IT ISN'T A DIESEL! Why do you people want us to stay completely dependant on oil?! Alternatives exist! Even if everyone were driving around in Poopuses and Corollas, we would still be using oil! My point was simply that people don't have to drive a plastic, slow econo box to be better for the environment!

*Sigh* The Tahoe doesn't RUN off biodiesel! IT ISN'T A DIESEL! Why do you people want us to stay completely dependant on oil?! Alternatives exist! Even if everyone were driving around in Poopuses and Corollas, we would still be using oil! My point was simply that people don't have to drive a plastic, slow econo box to be better for the environment!"

I see, so your theory is that instead of driving gas guzzling Tahoes people should driving ethanol guzzing Tahoes. And here is what happens:

- The Tahoe average mileage goes to about 8 mpg, meaning there is a greater demand for gasoline as a blend.

- The Tahoe engines wear out more quickly so therefore cost more to replace AND require MORE energy to produce the new engines.

- Ethanol is barely sustainable in areas where it is sold, and it is simply impossible to create the amount needed to fuel the entire American driving public driving Tahoes.

- Ethanol production uses MORE energy than gasoline production, so it therefore will INCREASE our dependence on foreign oil.

Your solution is like telling a fat person to lose weight by switching from eating cake to eating pie.

As for the Prius, the Prius is NOT slow by SUV standards and, in fact, is faster than many on the road today. And your example of the Ford Escape hybrid is driven by... a PRIUS-based ENGINE. Oops, another of your theories out the door.

And check out the plastic content of your Tahoe vs. that in a Corolla. And then check out the 0 - 60 times of today's compact cars. Your theories on that are based on 1975 figures. Get with today, man!

As for the British poster, Americans currently dislike diesel so hybrids are the only current solution. As you can tell by these posts Americans insist on driving gas guzzlers to commute with, get groceries, and lots of other tasks that only involve one driver. Diesel is currently more expensive than gasoline, so when Americans go to fill up their must-have SUV they are looking to cut costs. That's why you see cheap gas stations like at CostCo with lines around the block full of Expeditions, Tahoes, Escalades, and the rest.

"The Tahoe average mileage goes to about 8 mpg, meaning there is a greater demand for gasoline as a blend."

Yes, mileage does decline somewhat, but nowhere near that much (and increases horsepower, I believe). Also, I have a feeling that even using 15% gasoline in a vehicle that gets 17MPG would still be using less oil then someone driving a Prius getting 42MPG.

- 'The Tahoe engines wear out more quickly so therefore cost more to replace AND require MORE energy to produce the new engines.'

I don't know what you're talking about. All that needs to be done is change some of the components like rubber hoses etc., for the higher alchohol content. An ethanol engine will last just as long.

- 'Ethanol is barely sustainable in areas where it is sold, and it is simply impossible to create the amount needed to fuel the entire American driving public driving Tahoes.'

The only reason it isn't sustainable right now is because there hasn't been a big enough investment made in the technology yet! That would be like people 175 years ago saying well we can't use the steam engine because there would be no way to sustain the creation of diesel fuel! An effort must be made for ANYTHING to work! And like I have said over and over, it doesn't have to be the only alternative fuel. I'm not sure about hybrds yet, I'm hearing a lot of people say they aren't the vehicle of the future because of reliability problems and non-recyclable components, but I think it could be perfected to maybe be a good solution, but they still use gas, just somewhat less of it.

- 'Ethanol production uses MORE energy than gasoline production, so it therefore will INCREASE our dependence on foreign oil.'

I hear a lot of ethanol naysayers say that, but so far have heard no evidence to back it up. And as I stated before, if more people were making it, perfection make it more viable. You're basically listening to hype put out there by big oil companies, because they want ethanol to be snuffed out so they can continue on with their monopoly.

'As for the Prius, the Prius is NOT slow by SUV standards and, in fact, is faster than many on the road today. And your example of the Ford Escape hybrid is driven by... a PRIUS-based ENGINE. Oops, another of your theories out the door.'

motortrend.com:

Pruis 0-60:10.2 seconds

GMC Yukon Denali 0-60:6.4 seconds.

So no, the Prius is by no means fast, even compared to SUV's. And as far as the Ford Escape goes, the reason I would buy it over a Prius is because (1) I like Ford more than Toyota and (2) I despise the way the Prius looks. If they made it look like a normal vehicle then I might like it more. But it all comes down to personal opinion on that one.

And why are you promoting non-dependence on foreign anything, and then saying everyone should be driving Priuses and Corollas, which are foreign products! You might rethink that one.

American's have always liked big cars, I don't see any big problems with that, I think everybody should buy whatever they want, and the government has no right to tell people what they can and can't drive, that kind of violates the 'pursuit of happiness' part of the Constitution.

American's have always liked big cars, I don't see any big problems with that, I think everybody should buy whatever they want, and the government has no right to tell people what they can and can't drive, that kind of violates the 'pursuit of happiness' part of the constitution.

Unfortunately, your arguments fall all over themselves.

1) You'll have to explain how your calculator shows that 17 mpg (a figure UNattainable with ethanol in an SUV) is better than 47 mpg (what my friend is getting ON AVERAGE in his Prius). Ethanol is more expensive to make and still relies heavily on foreign oil as your gas guzzling SUV is still not efficient by any standard.

2) You are sadly misinformed on ethanol and what it does to both mileage and engine wear. It is NOT simply replacing a few components. Ethanol wears out the engine significantly faster.

3) Investment in ethanol is a folly as even if we put 100% of our resources into its production it would still not be able to support what you are talking about. It is simply a government scam, backed up by the American manufacturers who can only build gas guzzlers.

4) You are comparing a full size SUV with a huge gas guzzling engine with the Prius. You need to compare the AVERAGE SUV 0 - 60. Otherwise I'll simply throw in the Tesla which has zero emissions, uses no gasoline, and goes 0 - 60 in 4.5 seconds. And even if we all drove Teslas their costs per mile would still be significantly less than ethanol-based cars when you factor in the energy needed to produce the electricity.

5) Your Escape argument was doomed from the start.

6) I guess I'm confused by your last remark since we are talking about OIL consumption, not consumer buying. And remember, you're the one promoting the Escape with the foreign engine.

'www.treehugger.com/files/2005/12/toyota_prius_hy.php - 76k -'

The Prius IS built in China. Just type in 'Prius made in China' into google.

'Every auto publication researching the reality of ethanol has stated this to be fact both from their own use of ethanol trucks/cars to that of the scientists actually making the stuff.'

Really?

http://www.drivingethanol.org/

www.ethanol.org/

http://www.25x25.org/?gclid=CN_k96nyuIkCFQgQYQodaWl0Qw

Those are just a few web sites who think otherwise. Or are you another one of those people who believes whatever Consumer Reports says.

'Unlike you, I've actually researched this topic so my facts are based on facts.'

OK, well lets hear some of those 'facts'! I haven't heard you give any evidence for your 'facts', just a lot of opinion. In fact, I'm finding this debate to be more and more a waste of my time because I'm not hearing you give any evidence for any of you claims! And actually I have done a fair amount of research on ethanol, and if you can get past the big oil company hype, it actually is a very reasonable alternative fuel, non the only solution as I have said, but one amongst others.

'I'm sorry, I'm trying to debate you based on what you have stated. I'm not a mindreader. Your ENTIRE argument is that ethanol-guzzing SUVs are the salvation to America's energy crisis. And why you keep bringing the Toyota-motored Escape is beyong me since you keep saying how horrible the Prius is with essentially the same engine.'

No, you said that American auto makers could 'only' make gas guzzling SUV's. I was simply pointing out that what you were saying was bogus. And my entire argument is NOT that ethanol guzzling SUV's were the salvation to anything. You said our energy needs would automatically be solved if everybody was driving Priuses and Corollas. I said that was ridiculous. You act as if that's the only option! It's not! The fact is, that's not going to happen! We need viable alternatives that include people driving the normal cars they're used to while being better for the environment, without being forced to drive around in some tiny tin can!

'The Escape HYBRID, the vehicle we ARE talking about, has an engine built by Toyota since Ford made a decision in the late 1990's that giant SUVs were the future of car making and, surprise surprise, has been caught with its pants down.'

No, the engine in the Ford Escape HYBRID, is NOT built by Toyota. Some of the components are similar, but it is STILL built by Ford.

Youch! Calm down everyone. I think there are valid posts being made on both sides. Yes, ethanol is a renewable resource, so having it added in gasoline seems reasonable. The Toyota Prius (and Ford Escape hybrid), though not perfect, are definitely a step in the right direction. 0-100 km/h in 10 seconds is no Porsche 911, but it's not that bad either, and it'll be fine for 95% of people's driving.

The real solution is one that has nothing to do with cars. North American cities and suburbs need to be totally redesigned so that one is not a slave to the automobile. Work, residential, shopping and entertainment places should all be walking distance from each other. Public transit should be extensive and faster than driving. The car should be treated as something special- something you take on a trip on the weekend for instance - not something you sit in a traffic jam in for hours on end. Living in Canada, and having visited America, Europe and Asia, I have to say that in North America, we've got city design all backwards compared to other places. Granted the downtown areas of many cities are well layed out, but the suburbs are usually a different story.

""The Prius IS built in China. Just type in 'Prius made in China' into google.""

No need. Just looked at the vehicle plate in my friend's Prius. You know, the one where it says "country of manufacture: Japan". Any Prius built in china is NOT for US export as of this writing, and we ARE talking about US cars.

Rest of you arguments are just dances as you switch from one topic to another with no consistency.

Your argument is ethanol guzzling Tahoes are the salvation for America, and they clearly are not. You simply brought up other cars when I blew a hole in it.

""'The Prius is now being made outside Japan for the first time, with production for the Chinese market starting in Changchun, China in December'

-That's copy+paste from Green Car Congress for June 07, 2006.""

And this conflicts with my statement that American Priuses are built in Japan how?

As to your claim Americans love full size SUVs, I suggest you look at the current trends in car buying these days. The last car you would want to buy, as far as resale value, is an SUV.

"There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for one hundred years." - Henry Ford.

Fuel of the Future.

When Henry Ford told a New York Times reporter that ethyl alcohol was "the fuel of the future" in 1925, he was expressing an opinion that was widely shared in the automotive industry. "The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything," he said. "There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years."

Ford recognized the utility of the hemp plant. He constructed a car of resin stiffened hemp fiber, and even ran the car on ethanol made from hemp. Ford knew that hemp could produce vast economic resources if widely cultivated.

Why Henry's plans were delayed for more than a half century:

Ethanol has been known as a fuel for many decades. Indeed, when Henry Ford designed the Model T, it was his expectation that ethanol, made from renewable biological materials, would be a major automobile fuel. However, gasoline emerged as the dominant transportation fuel in the early twentieth century because of the ease of operation of gasoline engines with the materials then available for engine construction, a growing supply of cheaper petroleum from oil field discoveries, and intense lobbying by petroleum companies for the federal government to maintain steep alcohol taxes. Many bills proposing a National energy program that made use of Americas vast agricultural resources (for fuel production) were killed by smear campaigns launched by vested petroleum interests. One noteworthy claim put forth by petrol companies was that the U.S. government's plans "robbed taxpayers to make farmers rich".

Gasoline had many disadvantages as an automotive resource. The "new" fuel had a lower octane rating than ethanol, was much more toxic (particularly when blended with tetra-ethyl lead and other compounds to enhance octane), generally more dangerous, and contained threatening air pollutants. Petroleum was more likely to explode and burn accidentally, gum would form on storage surfaces and carbon deposits would form in combustion chambers of engines. Pipelines were needed for distribution from "area found" to "area needed". Petroleum was much more physically and chemically diverse than ethanol, necessitating complex refining procedures to ensure the manufacture of a consistent "gasoline" product.

However, despite these environmental flaws, fuels made from petroleum have dominated automobile transportation for the past three-quarters of a century. There are two key reasons: First, cost per kilometer of travel has been virtually the sole selection criteria. Second, the large investments made by the oil and auto industries in physical capital, human skills and technology make the entry of a new cost-competitive industry difficult.

Until very recently, environmental concerns have been largely ignored. All of that is finally changing as consumers demand fuels such as ethanol, which are much better for the environment and human health.

Also.

Don't give up on diesel. Biodiesel will run in any diesel engine without modifications, and can be found at many diesel stations in most larger cities. Also, a commercially available onboard heating system will allow you to run straight Vegetable oil in your diesel engine. See www.frybrid.com or www.vegistroke.com or www.greasecar.com or www.plantdrive.com for available conversion kits. Most people can obtain used vegetable oil for free from restaurants who would otherwise have to pay for its disposal.

"The diesel engine can be fed with vegetable oils and would help considerably in the development of agriculture of the countries which use it. The use of vegetable oils for engine fuels may seem insignificant today. But such oils may become in course of time as important as petroleum and the coal tar products of the present time."

-Rudolf Diesel 1911.

I am the owner of a 2000 F-250 Powerstroke. I must have a full size truck for my home service business. If not for that, I would be driving a subcompact diesel like a VW Jetta TDI and running in on biod, or maybe get one of the new hybrid/ethanol ford escapes. I have gone over 20,000 miles without a drop of petroleum products. Biodiesel, Veggie oil, and Synthetic AMSOIL lubricants are all I put in my truck.

You skipped the part about ethanol causing cars to get worse gas mileage, burning out/ruining engines faster, and increasing the cost of food (just look at what happened to Mexico's tortilla prices).

Ethanol is really a scam perpetuated by Congressional members from corn growing states in conjuction with big agribusiness. And, of course, domestic car makers love it since it makes their gas guzzling SUVs and pickups "seem" fuel efficient and environmental, which they are not and never will be.

We should wean our dependence on oil (starting by driving fuel efficient cars), but ethanol is not the panacea people are duped into thinking it is.