2007 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

The argument over cast iron and aluminum is ridiculous. Using extremely crude physical characteristics of various metals has nothing to do with engineering. I could just as easily mention the fact that cast iron has a tendency much more than aluminum to crack.

There are hundreds of different kinds of aluminum alloys and levels of temperament for metals of all kinds. That's why there's such alloys as T7651, which is a type of aluminum used in aircraft production. The reason such alloys are used is because they are highly durable, strong, and lightweight. Those aircraft, along with their engines use a high percentage of aluminum in their construction and withstand many times the stress, heat, warping, and pressure of a car. Now go walk into a room full of aerospace engineers and tell them that they're completely wrong and should be making planes out of cast iron...

In regards to cars, I've never overheated a car. Of the few people who I know who have, almost 90% of the reason came from severe neglect; the radiator was leaking, or the coolant was seldom if ever changed. Your single argument that a cast iron engine saves you from having damage in the case of overheating is sort of null, given the fact that even if you did overheat a cast iron engine, you'd very likely warp the head and blow the head gasket, which means a $1,500 minimum repair sheet. The same would happen with an aluminum engine, which would be the destruction of the head gasket and possible warping of the head. Different materials, same results.

What this all boils down to is that there are those who are all about "Buy American!" and so will always buy Fords and Chevys. Whether Toyotas are engineered better has nothing to do with the argument. Any mechanical device is comprised of hundreds of moving parts that will perform nicely if you take care of them.

Many of these trucks are made from parts supplied by both foreign and domestic suppliers. In some cases they share the same components. My Tacoma has a GM radiator, AC pump, and Evac system. My brother's Ford Ranger has a German built engine under the hood. So in reality, if you think you're buying an American or Japanese built truck... you probably aren't.

Probably no Ford 250's are sold in Japan. But probably a lot of Ford F-250's are.

Yeah, we domestic drivers really never haul thousands of pounds in our truck beds. Yep, we're lying. I made all of that up... Baloney. Once again, you think your Toyota sets the standard for a truck and since your Toyota can't haul a thousand pounds without the leaf springs breaking, you then automatically assume that those "crappy" domestic brands can't do it either. Wrong.

I have twice hauled 1000lbs pallets of Motorcraft oil filters over 90 miles (in one direction) on my delivery route. Not to mention the delivery drivers (who worked at the dealership before I started working there) that have hauled thousands of pounds in my delivery F-150. Each time, I got the fork lift, picked the pallet up, sat it on my tailgate (did not hurt it), backed the fork lift up and scooted the load on into the back of my 8ft bed. I then took ratcheting straps to keep the pallet from scooting forwards. The bed squatted a few inches and the truck handled and rode much better with the weight dampening the springs.

We've also used the F-150 to move dozens of automatic transmissions that came in a stock order at the dealership. We had to move about 24 or more transmissions that we were putting away in our warehouse for stock. We took our fork-lift, loaded our E-150 and my F-150 with five automatic transmissions each, and moved them across the parking lot. We made several trips across the lot. This is not a far trip, but the point is, the E-150 and F-150 did not squat all the way down with these loads. Each transmission weighs anywhere from 200lbs to 300lbs. Take that and multiply it by five and do the math. We've also put about 1000 lbs of transmissions in the back of our Ranger delivery truck, and it didn't squat it either. Work suspensions I tell you. It's amazing what thick and wide leaf springs can do.

My father used a late 70's model F-150 to haul tobacco bails in its 8ft bed. The stack was so large, the bails were stacked all the way over the roof. The truck squatted all the way down, but had no problems moving and handling the load. My father hauled 3800lbs of tobacco in my '78 C20 and the leaf springs barely squatted. Nine leaf springs, you can count them if you want to, N-I-N-E.

I have also hauled two loads of green maple wood cut straight off the trees, each time with the wood piled over the sides of the bed. Each time I hauled the wood over a 20 mile trip. The C20 squatted about an inch and there was every bit of 2000 pounds of green wood in the bed.

My father also used my C20 to haul tobacco that had just been cut to the barn to be hanged when our wagon had rotted out. The tobacco was stacked all the way from the back window to the very edge of the tail gate. It did not squat the truck, and we hauled the loads across very bumpy patches thumping over top of tobacco stumps sticking up out of the ground, making the truck hop up and down all the way to the barn with probably a ton of tobacco in the back.

And yes as crazy and ridiculous as it sounds, TWICE I have seen F-150's hauling tree trunks of fully grown trees, squatting the bed all the way to the axles, but doing nothing to the frame. The first time, I saw an older model Ford hauling a huge trunk years ago on KY 1247, and about a year ago I had to pass a newer F-150 crawling up the road with a full grown tree trunk cut in half and both pieces laying in the bed on KY 70. And yes also on KY 70 about a month ago, I saw an S-10 pulling a fertilizer buggy.

Half ton and quarter ton are old time terms, just basically meaning the minimal amount setting the category a pickup fits into according to its suspension and drive-train re-enforcements. These are not literal terms. Usually half tons can handle up to 3000 pounds in the bed, and quarter tons can handle around 4000 pounds in the bed. These may go beyond the rating by the manufacturer, but domestics are re-enforced beyond their ratings to ensure they can handle any load someone might do with them.

My brother-in-law owns his own snow-plowing business. On March 11, 2005 a freak snow storm hit up where he lived, so he had to plow and salt a Pilot truck-stop with which he had a contract. I was with him and I helped him load, by hand, several tons of salt in the bed of his Dodge 2500 Diesel Ram; not to mention the 500 pound snow plow on the front and the salt thrower on the back. We made two trips back to his house to load back up with more salt, as he continued through the night until 4:00 AM, plowing and salting the parking lot of the truck-stop as the snow came down.

In the country, we know what work is and we know what work for a truck is, and we know what we expect out of our WORK trucks. We don't care about supple rides and pretty interiors, we care about heavy leaf springs and heavy frames that can handle the tonnage we throw at them. By saying something like "no one really hauls thousands of pounds in their truck" absolutely proves that you don't do work with your Toyota. Let me make a correction, YOU don't haul thousands of pounds in your truck. Some of us do and that's why we won't touch Toyota's.

You won't explain how your Tacoma is better designed. You just say "it's better designed". More ambiguity. Let me make a guess how your Tacoma is better designed. It's better designed because it has skinnier control arms, attached to skinnier frame rails, with a light and soft aluminum car engine, and a car transmission riding on the skinny frame.

I deliver parts to a place where they have salvage wrecked trucks laying around the lot. I saw a Tacoma frame laying in the lot where all of the other parts had been removed and sold separately. The frame was about as thick as a clip-board, and the fold of the frame was so small on the front and back of the frame that I could wrap my hand around the whole frame. The only impressive thing about the frame was it was actually fully boxed, but it would have to be since it was so skinny.

Gee, I wonder why it would be able to fly through the air and land without any damage. Because it's light! A 3000lb Tacoma is not heavy. It's quite light. Try 5000 pounds or 6000 pounds if you want heavy. The Tacoma is lighter than any domestic equivalent, so it lands more softly than the equivalents. Lighter is not tougher, it's lighter.

But if it makes you feel better, I made all of these stories up because, noooo we don't use our trucks to move thousands of pounds. Never, it's all a big myth. LOL.

If I wanted a fast car like the new Vette, I would want a light high performance aluminum engine, or for racing. If I wanted lightweight for fuel economy, I can see aluminum in a little econo sedan.

In a truck carrying heavy loads and towing in bumper to bumper beach traffic, I want cast iron. I prefer not to overheat and destroy my heads. I could never use a Tacoma or a Tundra, and there are many that need stronger larger trucks Ford F250 class equivalent or above.

Yes, I'll outright say that My tacoma is without a doubt considerably better engineered, better built, and more durable than the equivalent Ford Ranger or Chevy S-10. I've taken care of all the vehicles in my family: My wife's car, my brother's truck (Ford Ranger) and my dad's older F-250, and now current Tundra.

Why are they better-built? Well for one thing, just take a look at the hardware used to hold the engine and chassis together. Ford likes to use cheap painted bolts and hardware to attach many of their components. My Tacoma has mainly yellow anodized bolts. Big deal you say. Yes - it is a big deal because I've personally had to spend hours trying to bust the bolts loose on his truck that were permanently rusted tight. Not so on my Tacoma. Despite 220,000 miles and 12 years, things come apart easily. Ever changed the plugs in a Ranger? About the lamest procedure I've ever seen. The truck has EIGHT plugs. Yes - 8 plugs for a little 90 HP 4-banger engine. What's more, the plugs are located in deep pockets that allow water to get trapped. Result? - the plugs were FROZEN in the engine block. What geniuses those Ford engineers are huh?

Secondly, you're comments that " We know how to work in the country" is nonsense.I've heard this kind of self-righteous stuff before. " we country folks..." Well guess what? I too grew up and lived in the country for most of my life. I hauled mowing equipment, tools, rocks, firewood, and even a small camper with my Tacoma. Guess what? That little truck hauled 2 riding mowers, a push mower, the trailer, and all the other stuff in the bed just fine, and even up sharp hills. In fact, many of the smaller roads around my area were not even paved. So just like you, I too know how to work and use my truck for what a truck is meant for. My brother's Ranger bit the dust 3 years ago. Mine is still in practically new condition.

Long answer short, there isn't a single thing that you half suggested that has anything to do with the quality of Tacomas. And yes - a Tacoma is in most counts better built than anything Ford or Chevy can puke out of their shuttering factories across the rust belt and Canada.

Anyhow, You're more than free to keep right on buying outdated, antiquated, gas-guzzling trucks with Brazilian, Chinese, and Mexican parts made in Canada all you want. I'll keep right on buying my toyotas made with American built parts in American factories that help keep people who used to work for GM, Ford, and Chrysler employed. In my opinion, it's better to put money into the pockets of US workers instead of those of CEOs in companies that outsource most of their labor anyway.

This is one of those: " By-golly, I'm American and I'm gonna' buy American." arguments. Nobody is going to win this one, so I'm done.

"In regards to cars, I've never overheated a car. Of the few people whom I know who have, almost 90% of the reason came from severe neglect; the radiator was leaking, or the coolant was seldom if ever changed. Your single argument that a cast iron engine saves you from having damage in the case of overheating is sort of null, given the fact that even if you did overheat a cast iron engine, you'd very likely warp the head and blow the head gasket, which means a $1,500 minimum repair sheet. The same would happen with an aluminum engine, which would be the destruction of the head gasket and possible warping of the head. Different materials, same results."

Did you not read what I wrote clearly or something? I have over heated my Explorer to red line countless times because of a bad radiator, to the point where it was pinging and popping. What did I do? Pull over and let it cool off. Then what? Fire it right back up and keep on goin'. I have over 200,000 miles on it, the last 20000 spent over heating every day or every other day. With a new radiator, it runs like a champ. The MOST I have EVER had to do as a result of over heating was change the oil. No $1500 repair bill there, eh? Just about 50 bucks and a little bit of elbow grease.

21:40 Nice LONNNG comment. Yeah, I owned one of your 'work' trucks once. It didn't work. Because it's a Ford.

I don't care if it has 65 leaf springs. They're useless when the engine and transmission are garbage. A Ford cast iron block is good for anchoring a ship maybe, but not much else when the mileage gets up there. Of course the block won't be damaged, it's a big piece of solid metal. It's all the junk parts that they carelessly put into the block that break.

My Toyota works. And most people have the same experience I've had. The domestics fall apart; the imports don't.

The proof is the current sales numbers. People are buying more and more Toyota's and much less Fords. That's a fact.

I won't waste my time explaining why Toyota's are clearly better put together because you'd simply tell me I'm wrong.

Yes... I read your whole post all the way through. I'm not sure what point you're making about an Explorer overheating other than that Ford's (especially Tauruses) have a nasty habit of clogging up their cooling systems and blowing head gaskets. The initial argument was about quality. A quality car wouldn't overheat to begin with because the metallurgy, radiator, and cooling passages would've been designed to function properly. Simply put- an overheating car is either A: neglected, or B: crappy design. Probably B if we're talking Ford.

In fact.. I happen to have a classic car that I work on weekends. I go to a local junk yard and I swear- the Ford section is the biggest section of the yard. Why? Because I will pass hood after hood of an opened Ford carcass with the tell-tale sign of a blown head gasket: white foamy residue all over the engine bay. That goes for Tauruses, Explorers, and the occasional Mustang.

My Tacoma has 220,000 miles and I finally changed the radiator fluid after 75k. Guess what? the fluid was totally clean and the radiator is nearly perfect. Hmmm. I wonder if that means my truck doesn't overheat? ding ding ding!

I'm not sure if bragging about how well a explorer overheats would have me bursting with pride. I'm glad others are though. Ford must be glad to realize that if they design something badly, people will overlook the shortcomings.

I wish I had problems to brag about what problems my truck has. But unfortunately the durned' thing just keeps right on running perfectly. I'll be darned if it's too well engineered!

09:24 First of all cast iron can take 300 more degrees than any aluminum, no matter the alloy. Which I might add is part of engineering. I suppose the engineer did not consider the heat tolerance of the materials to be used in the engine; no they don't look at that info. Especially since the cooling system is calibrated to that info, or do those Tundra's use Corolla radiators because engineers wouldn't care how much heat to displace and the size of radiator required to do the job.

For your information I have had training in airframe and powerplant, as well as several years working on F-15's. First of all aluminum is mostly used as a skin or maybe for spars in the wing, depending on the performance of the aircraft. The engines such as turbine engines use titanium and steel; both very strong and heat resistant metals. Titanium is important because it is light weight as well as strong. However, it is very expensive and difficult to work on, so only high dollar items can afford to incorporate such materials into their design. As far as your metal, well I have some books that I can check if it is real, and the alloys involved, I will keep the people posted.

13:30 Well, I know I'm impressed. You have a Ford that overheats every day. Good job. You should have bought a Toyota.

Most of what can be said here has already been said... but I'd just like to chime in here and give my experiences as unbiased as possible:

My current truck is a 1993 Chevy full size K1500 Blazer, it's basically like a 2 dr Tahoe or a Yukon (Tahoe model name wasn't used until 1995). The truck currently has 203,000 miles on it and the 350 "TBI" engine runs great, while showing no absolutely no signs of stopping. I'm no mechanic, but I do almost all of my own maintenance on this truck, it's very intelligently thought out and easy to work on. If you need advice, the info is readily available online and you can do most maintenance with basic tools. I do all my own oil changes, and the parts that I ever do need are very reasonably priced. I don't plan on ever selling it, it's been excellent. I get many compliments on it's condition as well, it looks great, not something expected of a vehicle this old in the road salt-laden Boston, MA area.

My previous truck was a 1988 GMC Suburban with a TBI 350. I still have the truck, but unfortunately it was stolen out of my driveway and crashed through someone's house at 4am and suffered cosmetic damage to the nose, along with a smashed steering column. I plan on fixing it based on the fact that it's been downright reliable. At the time it was stolen, it had 199,000 miles on the original engine, and less than a month before the original transmission had just burned out a direct clutch or something inside, which led me to get it completely rebuilt. The entire rebuild at a speed shop was 900 bucks, including them replacing the flywheel and rear main engine seal since the transmission was out. The truck barely had any rust on it, although these models WERE terribly prone to rust (designed in 1973 basically.)

My dad has a 1988 Chevy Silverado with yes, a TBI 350. That truck has over 277,000 miles on the original engine and transmission. The only problems with it are the paint on the hood is starting to flake, and the cab corners have some rust bubbles. It's still in very good shape though.

My little brother has a 1989 Caprice Classic with the 305 fuel injected engine. The car will not die. It has over 200,000 miles also. Original running gear. It still looks kinda nice too!

In contrast, we've had some Pontiac Grand Prix's that had plenty of problems, mostly brakes, struts, and so on. Just terrible cars.

I'm sure there are plenty of good Toyotas and foreign cars, although I haven't owned any. I've driven them plenty of times though. I drove a 2000 Celica a few times a week, and it was the worst car I've ever driven. Blind spots everywhere, radio didn't work, the ergonomics for the driver were all wrong like the steering wheel was too far away, and the hatchback fell on my head. It kept stalling too. This was when the car was only about 4 years old and had 58,000 miles. In addition, about 75 percent of the 1990s Toyota Celicas I see have soot all over the back of them from burning oil. I've had friends with these and while most had high miles, like 180K or whatever, a few had only about 80-100,000 miles. Oil consumption at that mileage isn't acceptable.

What I'm saying is there are good cars and bad cars with each manufacturer. I'm sick of everyone saying simply that since a car is branded a Toyota its the Holy Grail of the automotive world. It's not. Just because you owned some piece of crap GM front wheel drive car with a blown Quad 4 in it back in 1991, doesn't mean you're suddenly the authority on the subject.

To add a LITTLE bias here, I will say they aren't all they're cracked up to be. People (more like "Sheeple") are succumbing to advertising for a large part of this, and the statements about American made and all that still don't apply. The destination of your dollar is still a foreign company and country, and you're creating a trade deficit by buying a new Toyota. I'm not saying we should be obligated to buy from Detroit either, because they've been making some bonehead moves themselves lately, and the unions are turning the car industry into one big HMO plan. But when we are devoid of all our domestic manufacturing base 40-50 years from now, because you sped the process up buying a new Toyota, our country will be ripe for a takeover by China when we can't defend ourselves anymore. This is NOT a far fetched idea. Seriously, think about it.

Lastly, A transmission shouldn't cost over 1800 bucks to rebuild, etc... And if my Blazer's engine were to go out, a new crate engine is like 2 grand. I could probably install it myself too.

Just my .02.

Why are aluminum engines utilizing cast iron sleeves? Why doesn't Toyota make a diesel full size pickup like Ford and GM? If you want high mileage are you indicating a gas aluminum engine is better than a diesel? How come the Tundra does not have the towing capacity of the domestics to pull my boat? Its not even capable on the ratings on mine. You can go to a boat store in a Tundra and then have it delivered by a large domestic truck however. Tundra can pull a boat, but not mine that is heavy yet still trailerable. You beat up on Ford and say Toyota is better. Theres no way the load I place and expect on my domestic can even be done with a Toyota unless you care to disregard mfrs. tow rating specs. I do not believe you can generalize an entire mfrs. line up on only one old model that you may or may not have a basis on. Driving in the woods to have a campfire is one thing... towing boats, concrete mixers, tow behind mixers, large trailers that are used all week are another. I would like to see some comments on how diesel engines are supposed to not be built to last. Compare to full size Ford F250 and above... oops there isn't a comparison that I'm seeing from any of the imports sold in the U.S.A, so domestics have more to offer. Its clearly indicated in sales as well Ford F Series has consistently been the number one selling vehicle in America. You would expect that to be a car but it shows a lot......... so that can only indicate what a great vehicle that Ford has that addresses the many truck niches that people expect.

23:40 Please don't feed us that flag-waving nonsense about how I'm going to cause the demise of the United States because I bought a Toyota instead of a rickety GM vehicle.

Toyota is building plants in this country more often than anyone else and employing US workers, while the Big 3 are selling out overseas. Yeah, I can already hear the domestic car owners chanting.. blah, blah... 'they still employ 'x' number of workers, and Toyota only employs this many'... But the point is that the trend is reversing. If we get blown to bits by China in 50 years, it's because this country started going downhill a LONG time ago, we have an inept, corrupt government, and we're wasting all of our resources and money in other small countries trying to play mother to the world instead of focusing on making THIS country a little better. It has nothing to do with what car or truck any of us drive. I can't quite see how buying a Ford Fusion made in Mexico will improve things instead of a Camry made right here in the US.

You have to get your story straight. First you say no one really hauls thousands of pounds in their trucks, then I contradict your statement with my testimony of having hauled thousands of pounds. Then you come back and imply that you do haul a lot of weight with your truck; make up your mind. I don't care what you've hauled over the years; if you've done it with a Toyota, it was a light load. Wow, lawn-mowers; those are usually 300 pounds apiece.

Had my father or grandfather used a toy to do their farm work, they would have been terribly sorry and over-whelmed with buyer's remorse.

Quit trying to defy Physics; the metal physically is not there. These foreign trucks are thin and light all the way through. You have to have heavy metal to move heavy loads.

I also bet you're so proud to give American's work while you fatten the pockets of Japanese CEO's. Let's all watch slowly as the Japanese sucker American after American in to sending our money to another country's economy, as ours dwindles away. You think it's a big deal when a domestic company sends its labor to a cheaper country? The profits come back home. The labor cost of producing a vehicle is only a fraction of the total profit a company makes from that vehicle. You think that Toyota and Honda are doing us such big favors by having us to build their products, then they send billions of dollars home to their country and out of ours. Before long, the Japanese will own our whole country and we'll all have no choice but to work for them. I am so filled with Patriotic pride when I think about working for the Japanese. When this all happens, I'll have you to thank.

Here's some economics for you. When you buy a Japanese product with American Dollars, you are basically buying Yen in the form of a truck. When you trade your American Dollars in for Japanese Yen, you drive the value of the Yen up and you drive the value of the Dollar down. So, not only are you sending money out of this country, but the money that remains in this country is worth less, due to depreciation, than what it was worth before. It's a double-whammy for us, except we get the pleasure of WORKING for them with them as our bosses. YAY!

Oh yeah, you think a 15 year old truck is impressive, why don't you try doubling that like my C20. It's a '78 model and I just drove it into town this morning. Every part of the drive-train is original and it has had a very very hard life of neglect, abuse, and work. I suppose you've put 3,800 pounds of tobacco in the back of your Tundra, or you've put 12,000 pounds behind either truck? I sure hope not; there would be no stopping the thing when you braked.

Oh yeah, so your doors and tailgate shut nicely? Of course they do. It's easy for a door to shut when it's light or a tailgate to shut nicely when it weighs 30 pounds. The tailgate on my Chevy weighs about 60 or 70 pounds and the doors weigh about 80 and that's with no features like power windows or locks. Gee, I wonder why my doors shut roughly after 30 years when they're nearly 100 pounds apiece?

God Bless America; give the Japanese your money, at least they'll pay you to build the product first, before they send the rest of it to Japan. I think we're screwed.

14:06.

You won't "waste" your time explaining why your Toyota is better because you've already used your reason.

"It's a Toyota."

When you and all the other Toyota-ites march to the beat of marketing-powerhouse drum, you don't get concrete reasons. Instead, you get intangible "because I said so" reasons that are as illogical as your blind faith in the squandered legacy of import vehicles.

Come on, don't tease us with the possibility of an actual explanation. Of course, I'd just say use the "It's a Toyota" excuse too if I didn't have the numbers to back it up. Please feel free to make a post when you've got a more substantial counter-statement to make.