2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - All Comments

Well, the 2008 sales figures are in. GM sales dropped 31.2%. Ford sales dropped 32.3%. Honda sales dropped 34.7% and Toyota sales dropped 36.7%

Since the import boosters have constantly ranted that INCREASED sales by Toyota and Honda meant that domestics were "crap", we might now put the shoe on the other foot and ask "Since GM and Ford sales have held up BETTER than Toyota and Honda during this recession, does that not indicate that Toyota and Honda now build crap?" If NOT, why NOT, according to import fan reasoning?

I'd love to hear them (RATIONALLY) talk their way out of that dilemma, especially since sales of the awesome new Chevy Malibu (a direct competitor to Camry and Accord) went UP by a whopping 51.5% in 2008.

I owned a 2000 Tundra SR5 extended cab 4x4TRD 4.7L (same model as the 2002). I owned it from 35,000 to 108,000 on the odo.

The good things:

Very reliable, the only thing that ever required fixing was a water pump that got replaced at the 90,000 mile "super service".

Very smooth and refined power-train. Able to tow my 31' Airstream with plenty of power and torque.

Good looking in black IMO. No rust problem.

Very good off-road.

The bad things:

Weak door detents (they would swing back with almost no slope or wind).

Stock suspension is too squishy and caused wander while trailering. It also allowed too much axle hop if it started to spin in snow or mud. I had the alignment done but it would still wear tires crooked for some reason.

Had weak seat-belt return springs.

Paint chipped easily.

Mileage was similar to larger trucks of the time, averaging 15-17 mpg, depending on speed and temperature (but this truck isn't as big and heavy -- so not too good).

To sum up, I would say that if you need a tough work truck for heavy hauling or towing, get something else. But if you need a reliable truck for lighter duty work or off-roading, this is a good choice (if my experience was representative).

So if you are looking to buy one, watch the tires and look for any sign of water leaks or water pump failure -- my understanding is that the coolant just eats 'em up after a while, so it could be that they all fail somewhere around 100,000 miles. Or check if the pump has already been replaced.

Lastly the import vs. domestic argument is pointless. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and should buy according to their needs. The problem seems to be that guys on this forum had some bad experiences with a brand or type of vehicle. Instead of admitting that their experiences weren't broad enough to be a representative sample, rather say that their experience was universal and moreover represents a conclusive argument against an entire region's vehicular products.

For example the "I had 3 Chevys blow engines --- I'll never buy American again and you shouldn't either" type. Come on guys... I had a good Toyota but that doesn't make all imports good (or bad).

My neighbors own Fords, Chevys, and Dodges. They seem to like them, but that doesn't mean that all domestics are good (or bad). Even if you've owned a broad array of types and brands, or know others whose experience is being added to your own, your sample size is still FAR too narrow and open to misinterpretation.

We're kinda stuck with the data from "Consumer Reports", JD Powers, and the like because their data sample size is in the 10s of thousands of owners, and thus provides a prospective owner an idea of where problems are and what their chances are of having the same (I'm only referring to the compiled data from consumers -- not the opinion sections of these publications).

FYI; My current vehicles are an 08 Nissan Altima and an 07 Jeep Wrangler. Both are performing VERY well... so far.

Wow! This debate is still going on?

Again, I must state that I think most of the comments here are way off topic.

I honestly don't understand why this has to turn into a debate about Imports vs. Domestics. I find it hard to understand why people are either dead set against imports, or dead set against domestic vehicles.

I also don't understand why so many people take it so personally, and I'll bet many of the people debating this issue switch sides depending on what make of vehicle they are currently driving.

All cars are basically "global" now, with parts being made all over the world, as well as assembly plants.

In our household we have a Jeep (U.S.A.), a Saab (Sweden), and a Lexus (Japan).

We like them all, and all have been very reliable.

If you have a make or model that you like and have had good luck with - Good for you! Enjoy it! Whether it be a domestic make or an import, and please don't take other's opinions so seriously.

I surely wish we could get back on topic now.

Sales don't matter if the company in question (GM) continues to lose massive amounts of money every quarter. Since 2007, GM has lost close to 63 BILLION dollars. That compared to Toyota's 1.7 Billion. It would seem to me that anyone reading those statistics would perhaps raise the suggestion that GM and Ford - who has also lost a ton of money - must not be doing something right.

I realize that anything Toyota does wrong (like the 20 engines produced for the Tundra with a faulty Camshaft) are going to get blown way out of proportion for all the pro-domestic crowd, seeking any possible flaw to "prove" how bad Toyota is, despite the fact that their company is built from reputation obtained from quality products. Just read any number of reviews of the vast quantity of dissatisfied reviewers of American cars and trucks here, and the difference between their experience and that of Toyota owners is overwhelming.

Case in point, the local Chevrolet dealer closed recently. They were offering free hot dogs and soda, so I strolled into the showroom. Sitting there was a brand-new Silverado. For starters, the gas door wasn't properly aligned. It was instead off by a good 1/4" and sank into the body. I could mentioned other flaws with this one truck, but overall, the quality, fit, and finish were almost embarrassing, but not surprising given that it's no different from the rest of the garbage they produce.

Frankly, I could care less where a vehicle is made. I've heard we will soon get trucks made in India. I will look at these too. It they're well-made, I might consider one. All I care about is if it's a good design, and to date, nothing GM or Ford makes is up to standards. But everything I've bought from Toyota does its job, gives me sometimes decades of reliable service, thus saving me money on repairs and maintenance.

My one hope is that GM, Ford, and Chrysler "get it", and the types of vehicles they produce don't fly, and if they are to survive, they are going to have to make better products. Plain and simple.

Where a vehicle is built is not as big a factor as where the parent company is located, as the vast amount of profits go to the home country of the manufacturing company, not the area in which the factory is located. That is especially the case with Toyota, which pays its workers far less than domestic companies and offers fewer benefits.

In addition, while import supporters rant about "bail outs" for U.S. auto makers, they neglect to look at the fact that our government has "bailed out" just ONE Toyota plant in in ONE state (Mississippi) to the tune of $225,000,000.

21:40 This is a full size truck review, and you mention Honda who does not even have a full size, and Toyota, meaning the Tundra to comment upon.

I love the ones who either do not own, plan to ever own ,most likely will not step up, or just comment upon passenger cars or the teeny trucks instead of full size.

I buy... not just daydream, and can comment directly more than a gas door alignment.

I like going to exotic car shows; maybe I could comment on paint color, but beyond that, I would not profess to have any level of expertise anything beyond that. Same as on here.

How stock reports are today has less of a bearing on what towing capacities, load carrying, room, handling, function etc have. If anyone else buys a new personal full size and walks into showrooms talking about Civics, Prius, Cobalts as well as stock reports, pensions etc it perplexes the imagination. I want the keys and drive them.

I am not all pro domestic... I do not like the Dodge Ram drivability whatsoever any more than Tundra. I also do not like 4WD and elevated models with reduced handling, bad bouncy rides as well. It no doubt pulls great, but it's not on my current wish list.

I really like the Dakota 2WD with the V8 and long wheel base ride and handling, but then dislike the Ram. The only way to tell this was to drive rather than looking in windows counting cupholders.

I picked on Chrysler a bit, but the relevance is the value of test drives.

I like Silverado most of all; best ride, handling, comfort on any of the full sizes I have personally driven lately. No doubt we will read about MPG or small trucks again, but unless I am missing something... I bought (meaning actually spent to buy a full size) for its capability and utility, not trying to make a small shoe fit the expectations on full size truck ownership.

It gets tiresome hearing someone lament about what they owned 20 years ago, and then labeling all present and future models. I may have hated a manual typewriter, but today I am on a wireless laptop. The current technology and safety advances like having air bags, better ride, warranty, features is why I am not driving an archaic beater around.

"Where a vehicle is built is not as big a factor as where the parent company is located, as the vast amount of profits go to the home country of the manufacturing company, not the area in which the factory is located."

A lot of good the money does for the Big three and its workers, considering Detroit, and much of the cities in the rust belt states of Ohio, Michigan, Minnesota, and Indiana are crumbling into rubble. Ironic since if you look at where Toyota and Nissan build their cars in states like TN and GA, these states have some of the highest living standards in the country. If it is to believed that money being made by Ford and GM in the US is superior, then how come the states they're headquartered in fail to show a benefit from it?

10:50 are you seriously going to look at trucks made in India? I know look is just a visual meaning, not serious, not testing, not buying a large truck made by any manufacturer. I know looking at a Tacoma is fruitless by looking at it... it's very small and not a full size truck. It's useless on a full size truck review, and individuals that actually look, plus buy the new full sizes out there. Stimulating the economy vs. just complaining about it.

12:59 More stories about domestics with no repairs and high miles. Why am I not surprised to read this? Because none of it can be proven.

For instance, the Ford Explorer is a piece of junk, any year, as are most Fords. Yet you claim it needed no repairs. I simply do not believe everything I read especially when it comes from domestic fans ranting about their vehicles on a Toyota thread, and with no way of proving a single word of it.

Your opinions aside, go back and read what I wrote; what CAN be proven, and has been documented: Toyota and Honda vehicles make far less trips to the garage than domestics. Period. I could easily type in a list of Toyota's I've owned that I haven't needed a penny in repairs. And that list would be accurate and true. But I still can't prove it to you. The difference is, research, reality, and fact back up my claims. My Toyota's never DID need repairs, and if you expect me to believe that a Ford Explorer didn't... well, it's not going to happen.

I could say that my Tercel had 450,000 miles on it and never needed a repair, just like you claim of all those domestics. And it wouldn't be true. However, I can claim, and it IS true, that I've owned three consecutive Toyota's that I abused badly, and never put a dime in repairs into any of them.

Another truth would be that the five domestics I've owned weren't even close in quality to the Toyota's and broke down regularly; the Ford Ranger I owned was the most miserable piece of garbage I ever wasted money on. Never again.

Imports every single time, because they're built better, last longer, are cheaper to own and drive, and are worth more on trade in; Toyota's and Honda's specifically. Ford, GM, and Dodge cannot compete with Toyota or Honda in build quality, design, reliability, or low cost of ownership.

10:50.

You are concerned about misaligned fuel fill covers. Aside from your free hot dogs, it sounds to me like you had your mind made up that you were going to find problems with the Chevy trucks before you ever stepped foot on the lot.

Fit and finish issues can be highly subjective.

Give me ANY vehicle, including a brand/model vehicle I like, and I guarantee I can find a fit and finish problem. Finding a single problem such as the one you mentioned proves nothing.

The real question is, what is more important, a slightly misaligned fuel fill cover, or a vehicles body/structural integrity as a whole? You are concerned about fuel fill doors being lined up to aerospace tolerances. How concerned then are you about documented accounts of Tundra bodies flexing so severely just from driving down the road that body panels and tailgates are bending out of shape? How concerned are you about Tundra tailgates failing just from having loads of little as two hundred pounds placed on them or flying off the "trucks" while being driven down the road opened?

Take a look at some of the petitions being circulated on the web for Toyota to address this problem. Are all these people imagining these things?

Take a look at these pictures on the following sight:

http://www.bodyshopzone.com/editorial/about_Toyota/Tundra_quality_problem.html

These are devastating problems, far beyond a misaligned panel. This is in addition to all of the devastating Toyota engine problems that are also being reported:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html

Whether Toyota fans like it or not, the severity of Toyota's problems beyond other manufacturers is unprecedented and undeniable. If the automotive press was the slightest bit objective (instead of in the tank for Toyota), they would be seriously questioning whether Toyota's were even suitable for continued sale to the American public.

"Fit and finish issues can be highly subjective."

Oh- So I guess it's perfectly acceptable for a supposedly superior Chevy to have body and interior panels that don't fit flush nor align. I also suppose it's acceptable that their frames and frame hardware already show rust on the showroom floor, or that the sound dampening materials under the hood is clearly visible and fraying at the edges. Or that the weld splatters show bits of welding wire sticking out. Yes indeed - a fine example of quality American engineering.

Yet I know that if some of you pro- GM and Ford guys saw a Toyota with even a tiny scratch on it, you'd be all over that thing, pointing to all of us just how bad they are.

That this argument just keeps going on and on, and on just comes to prove that perhaps GM and Ford might actually survive since there's apparently still enough people out there who don't actually concern themselves with quality and still cling to their numbing patriotism. Good for them. You guys can buy all those clunky trucks. We who learned the truth long ago will keep on buying our "foreign" cars.

I agree with 12:59. My Explorer has never needed a repair. I document all my service intervals in Excel, and keep track of receipts on all my vehicles in Excel. I have the records to prove that my domestics are reliable and inexpensive to operate. If you don't believe it, it's not hurting me any.

Those of us who recognize how good American cars are have to remember to not get upset by the 15-year-old import-owner's vitriolic attacks. There is no real use arguing with the guy. He's made up his mind, and will not be convinced otherwise despite the mountain of personal testimonials and the evidence of Consumer Reports and JD Powers. Anybody who can so easily dismiss every owner's statement about reliability as "no proof", "could have made it up", etc., is not having a rational discussion. It's just another example of the online game where people make outrageous statements to see if they can get a rise out of people and then laugh about it. If the guy is determined to shun American cars, he's only hurting himself.

In reply to:

"I've looked at new domestics. Still junk. Period. Not even worth the test drive. They don't have a lower cost of ownership, because it is a fact that they break down more

Anyone who won't sit in a new domestic has no factual basis whatsoever to condemn them. A close look at ANY domestic and ANY import (even German) from the outside won't show any appreciable differences. If you haven't even SAT in a domestic, refrain from passing meaningless judgments. Any time we buy a car we not only SIT IN, but actually DRIVE both domestics and imports. We base our judgments on verifiable FACTS and DRIVING EXPERIENCE, not bad experience with a 20-year-old domestic with 200,000 miles. We drive the cars, compare fit and finish, feel, interior layout and quality, price and length of warranty, then we choose. We always choose domestics because they win out in our experience over any import in most, if not all categories.

Domestics most definitely DO have a lower cost of ownership. Not only is that clearly shown in many comparisons, but in real-world experience. The repair costs of 7 of our domestics are as follows:

1) 1990 Dodge (241,000 miles) $ 550.00.

2) 1993 Ford Ranger $.00.

3) 1996 Ford Mustang: $.00.

4) 1998 Ford Explorer: $.00.

5) 2001 Dodge Dakota: $.00.

6) 2001 Pontiac (still owned, 72,000 miles) : $27.00.

7) 2003 GMC (still owned, 65,000 miles) : $.00.

That TOTALS $ 577.00 for SEVEN VEHICLES over a span of 18 YEARS, one of which had over 240,000 miles on it."

Sorry I do not believe number 6 (2001 Pontiac) if it's the V6, which is known to have intake gasket and dexcool issues. I have the 2000 Malibu V6, and every V6 engine that was made from 1998-2004 has had some problem with dexcool.

Now on topic. My domestic S10 1999 4x4 was a "failure", so was my 2000 malibu. The issue here is not that you can prove your car is reliable or not, it's about perception. It is perceived by many (due to past experience) that domestics are not reliable. Doesn't matter if they are or if they are not quality.

My family has driven GM for decades and my last truck was the S10. My new one is a 2003 Nissan Frontier. I looked before at everything before getting it.

Dodge - Bad on gas and unreliable

Ranger - Outdated and ugly no crewcab

Canyon - 5cyl (what were they thinking), no long bed CC

Toyota - Had everything but too expensive

Frontier - Style, CC, longbox, proven engine, a ton of options, LSD, premium stereo.

Tundra would be my choice for full size.

22:35 how about indicating specific model years you owned and what new full size trucks you have specifically tested. I am taking a guess, but I suspect small tiny Tacoma on a full size truck review. Correct me if I am wrong... was your Explorer comment pertaining to full size truck ownership?

As far as fit and finish goes... I do my best to avoid scratches on my full size truck. I look at engines, transmissions, gear ratios, heavy duty cooling, towing capacities and load ratings.

As far as bouncing and clogging along, I will take a full size long wheel base GM ride anyday over a short hoppy Tacoma, especially elevated.

I suspect you will never own a new full size truck, just an old Tacoma, and the comments way way back on most likely used abused domestics. What year were all these vehicles? Be specific, it is now 2009... I would like to discuss my findings too. Not just sit, never own, never buy a new one and then complain.

I seem to manage with less cup holders, do have a minute scratch in the rear quarter caused by my belt onloading gear at a boat ramp. I think I'll live as long as it can pull up the ramps and drive 2 hours home in intense heat and bumper to bumper traffic.

If I had a Toyota, I would be installing a straw holder with my cup holders instead of ever dwelling on utility and full size truck function and purpose. Buy a full size someday and tell us what why and what you bought one for. Maybe you will have a more realistic ownership view.