2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - All Comments

"I also suppose it's acceptable that their frames and frame hardware already show rust on the showroom floor."

I admire your diligence, but once again, you (a typical Toyota fan) are trying to excuse the inexcusable.

Firstly, I have never seen any of the problems with domestics you are talking about and was not making any concessions that I had in my statements. But you completely ignored what I said and take a whole different meaning from it in an attempt to support your misguided convictions. Yet you have not refuted a single fact that anyone presented, nor presented any of your own. You just use the typical Toyota argument (paraphrasing) "Toyota's are better because I say so, everybody knows it."

Secondly, how can you even bring up rust issues? Toyotas and other Asian cars are well known from being made from inferior metals of insufficient thickness. You have not addressed how it can possibly be acceptable (to a Toyota fan) for the Tundra to be constructed so flimsily that it bends itself out of shape just from driving down the road. As much as you might want to ignore it, this is a fact.

Have you heard about all the Toyota Tacoma frames snapping in half? It is all over the Internet. Is this how you define quality? Will you admit that any of these are serious problems that are unique to Toyota and not found in domestic vehicles?

Why don't you address some of these issues and all of the Toyota engine failure issues on Consumer Affairs? How about giving it another try and answering with a substantive argument this time?

To summarize, the points not yet addressed are:

1) Tundras bending out of shape from driving down the road

2) Tacoma frames snapping in half

3) The Toyota engine failure epidemic on Consumer Affairs.

If I were in the mood to laugh, I would. To compare a Ford Exploder (yes, Exploder) to ANY Toyota is laughable. I suppose the S-10 does better than a Tacoma off-road? I guess a Cavalier or an Escort is as good of a car as a Corolla?? I'll bet a Dodge Neon has as good of an engine as a Civic too... you guys are a riot.

"I simply do not believe everything I read especially when it comes from domestic fans ranting about their vehicles on a Toyota thread, and with no way of proving a single word of it."

OK, then check out the October 2007 issue of Consumer Reports article on high-mileage vehicles. The champ is a Ford Ranger with 488,000 miles and no problems. I suppose you think they made that up too??

18:20 the mood I am in is about the topic of the review full size trucks... it deviates for some reason to Toyota Tacoma, Corolla and Civics what on earth for? They are not even the subject of this review, and I am waiting to see if you will ever comment on foreign steel, thin sheet metal, engine sludging failures and transmission issues, undersized brakes, faulty air bags on Toyota models...

But small sedans and small pickups are not the topic anyway. I did not like the ride on the Toyota Tundra, however I love the handling and performance of the Dodge Viper. If a potential full size truck prospect can benefit from my off topic comparison I feel domestics are far superior. The Viper is the best car I have ever driven... makes about as much sense as talking about a Civic or Corolla on a full size truck review. Hope my info helps.

The Ford Explorer has from day one been the best selling SUV in America. We've owned 3. Never a single problem.

And YES, the Cavalier and Escort ARE better than the Corolla. The only car I've ever had break down on the road with us was a Corolla (TWICE). Our Escort never once had a single problem, nor did our Focus, or any of our other Fords. I've rode in a friend's Cavalier that had over 170,000 miles with no problems. My friend's Neon just turned 100,000 with absolutely nothing but routine servicing. I don't know of anyone who has ever driven a Corolla 100,000 miles without some fairly serious mechanical issues.

As for the Subject of this review, the Tundra, the first generation models were no match for any full size domestic truck by any wild stretch of the imagination. The newer models are a step up in size, but a step backward in build quality and reliability. I think this is why I'm seeing so many new F-150's and Silverados and virtually NO new Tundras. Ford and Chevy sales are off by less than Toyota and Honda, and in our area there is a "Buy from Americans" movement to encourage more people to support American industry. I expect this movement to catch on, as more people see the need to help our economy by buying American.

21:17 Wow. ONE Ford truck that gets the kind of mileage that every old Corolla, Civic, Tercel, or Toyota truck with a 22re engine is capable of getting. I can see why a Ford doing that would make headlines though. Because it's about as rare as seeing a unicorn. Read the Honda CRX reviews. Many of these cars have 3 or 400,000 miles and are still going. I've seen it personally. You should talk to a good friend of mine who is a long-time (certified) Honda mechanic. That is newsworthy for a Honda or Toyota, but it's miraculous for a Ford.

Wow wants to make you sell your full size truck and ride in a CRX. I could pay someone (a transporter) to tow for me 4 plus hours every weekend and ride in my CRX in style. Can I at least drive the Viper and you tow for me? The relevance again escapes one on a full size truck review.

I go in and test and buy a new truck. Can I test drive a car first and then write my check? I buy a full size based on utility and performance, ride, handling, towing and load capability as well as best function and warranty. Hope others might follow this example it works and quite effectively.

The 22RE is not made anymore. It was discontinued in 1995 due (presumably) to new emissions regulations in 1996. Aside from its propensity for head gasket failures, the 22RE was a durable engine, not the least of reasons for which was it having a cast iron block (oh how I miss cast iron blocks!!), with a no frills tried and true basic design, which I do not say as a criticism. I am no Toyota fan, but have seen that engine in action and will admit it was a great engine.

However, the period of time 22RE's were made (pre OBDII) was a different era for the automotive industry, and especially Toyota. By contrast to the 22RE's of Toyota's hey days, the new Toyota engines of 1996 and beyond have a horrible track record, e.g.:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html

How many late model Toyota engines have you heard of holding up for high mileages like the the 22RE? Everyone I know that has a late model Toyota has had major problems with them, in many instances requiring engine replacements. Sorry if some people do not want to hear that, but it is simply reality. Things change and not always for the better. I will say however, that I have always had excellent luck with all my domestics.

7:44... gas mileage applies to the small car mentality that apparently still runs rampant on a full size truck review. If you are buying a brand new full size pickup... it's due to strength, bed load capability, towing characteristics. You are looking for trans coolers, tow packages, frame construction.

I have one of our vehicles with a 37 gallon tank. You know when you buy they use fuel, and if it's an issue, buy small or not at all. If you do buy, it is usually for an application, not a useless vehicle.

I tow and a small car is not ever going to work. I would rather have strength even if I do not fully load and go into a vehicles duty cycle on its drivetrain. Gas is so secondary as to why you buy a full size truck to start with. If you carry a 50- 100 lb shrub or a bicycle in the back, maybe a small or light duty work truck... or even a hatchback car (with a tiedown rope) that gets higher MPG would be ideal for such a person.

"OK, then check out the October 2007 issue of Consumer Reports article on high-mileage vehicles. The champ is a Ford Ranger with 488,000 miles and no problems. I suppose you think they made that up too"??

FYI: The Ranger is a rebadged Mazda. Mazda is not owned by Ford but Ford has had a controlling interest (30%) for years. So the Ranger isn't the most apt example. However Ford is a fine company in their own right. According to Consumer Reports Fords are, on average, the most reliable of American makes. They are the most financially stable. They are in the upper echelon of manufacturers (quality-wise) worldwide. They have been more proactive about making changes to remain competitive.

All of this to say that if someone wants to pick on American auto manufacturers, Ford is the least likely choice. I've driven mostly Hondas and Toyotas for as long as I've been licensed to drive, but there seems to be rumblings of a shift. I like the sounds of some of the changes that traditionally American manufacturers are making. It took a walk on the edge to get them there, but they may come out of this as smaller but scrappier and more aggressive companies. Best of luck to them all. My next vehicle may well be from "the big three".

Every Tundra owner I know (which is a total of three, they aren't very popular here) has had lots of problems well before 60,000 miles. The early models are especially prone to problems, and the new ones don't seem to fair any better except for the more competitive size.

I just heard that Toyota is planning to discontinue building the Tundra (and I can see why) so I guess this entire discussion will soon become pretty much irrelevant.

09:29.

Glad to see you are keeping an open mind about things.

One thing though, the Ford Ranger is not a rebadged Mazda, but the Mazda 'B' series is 100% a rebadged Ford Ranger, complete with Ford engines. The manual transmissions on both, however, are Mazda.

They are great trucks. I have had a couple. My brother has one with over 420,000 miles on the original engine and transmission that he has never had any trouble with.

Ironically, the first small truck Ford sold WAS a re-badged Mazda (it was called the Courier and was sold in the 70's). Since 1993 the Mazda trucks basically ARE Ford Rangers. They are 100% Ranger mechanically, with only minor changes to the body. Family members have owned both the old Mazda truck and the re-badged Rangers. There is no comparison. The Rangers are more plush, ride better and are rock-solid reliable. 400,000 miles out of a Ranger is fairly common if they are well cared for.

9:29 Yes, Fords are the most reliable of the American makes, which gives them the honor of being the best of the worst in quality.

Yes, they are also the most financially stable out of three companies that are nearly going under. If Ford wasn't in financial trouble, their CEO would not have been sitting in front of that congressional committee kissing up and answering "yes" to every question the Congressman grilled them with. Anybody who watched that hearing knows that.

My next vehicle will be a Toyota, Honda, or Hyundai, just like the last 4 of them since I discovered how much more reliable they are than domestics.

Are there exceptions to the rule? Yes. Everybody makes lemons. It's just that the Big 3 make SO many and Toyota and Honda make so few that the obvious choice is an import. Especially when it comes to cars.

Nobody make s a better truck than Toyota. Some companies make larger ones with more towing capacity, but NOBODY makes a more reliable, higher quality, tougher truck than Toyota. I've said this before, but the true test of a truck isn't on the pavement. It's off road where they take a real beating. Towing a load on smooth pavement can't match the abuse a truck takes when it's being twisted, bounced, and over-revved off road. And anyone with any off road experience knows that Toyota can't be touched.

"One thing though, the Ford Ranger is not a rebadged Mazda, but the Mazda 'B' series is 100% a rebadged Ford Ranger, complete with Ford engines. The manual transmissions on both, however, are Mazda".

Oops, sorry about the misinformation. Thanks for setting me straight. 400,000+ on ANY vehicle is impressive. This is me... eating crow :)