2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - All Comments

"THANK GOD there is at least ONE other patriotic American out there!!! THANK YOU!!! I've been absolutely APPALLED at the "I don't care if the country goes bankrupt, I'm buying from FOREIGN COMPANIES" response from so many import owners."

You deny that Toyota and Honda's reputation for quality was earned, ignore the fact that all of these corporations are very global, ignore the fact that many of your best loved models are made outside of the country with some percentage of USA made componentry, and you seem to deny any benefit to our country that foreign based companies have by building their vehicles here. These are all MITIGATING factors that make the decision much less of the patriotic slam-dunk affair that you imagine all solid Americans should make it.

I, like you, feel that the overall net affect is beneficial (to America) when someone buys American -- even taking the above factors into account. But I'm not going to declare that those who purchase foreign vehicles are unpatriotic, especially if they do so because the last several domestics they owned nearly bankrupted them (it does happen sometimes).

Thankfully, domestic manufacturers are improving their products enough so that this conflict may soon be as irrelevant as you claim it already is. But until that happens, I'd say to you that patriotism shouldn't require living in a state of denial. You deny or ignore all of the points above, then add to them by making the claim that virtually all consumer agencies that compile data are biased, wrong, brainwashed, and apparently un-American. And you add this primarily because you don't like the conclusions derived from their research -- not because you have any evidence of wrongdoing.

More than likely all of the vehicles I buy from here on WILL be domestic. But I will do it because I DO think there is a net benefit to America. I DO think the domestics are getting better. I AM concerned about what the failure of these companies would do to this country. So I WILL find those products made by American companies that are highly rated and serve whatever need I'm purchasing them for.

But I WON'T stand up on my soapbox and make claims about people I don't know; Whose lives are a complete mystery to me; Whose experiences are different from mine; And whose decisions are thus affected in such a way as to make them do something I won't. They may indeed be patriotic AND drive a Toyota... if for no other reason than that they lack your omniscience.

11:38 I've had a new GM Silverado and a Mercedes sharing the same driveway. There are better ways to express a comment than to make a domestic owner an uneducated good ole boy drinking Bud Light. I suspect the implication is that domestic full size pick up buyers in 2009 lack the capability to make rational decisions. I find the reverse. I have yet to find an equivalent pickup being offered regardless of price by the import manufacturers. I do not even drink beer. However having a minimal Toyota truck lineup,minimal warranty, less room, less towing capability, less load carrying, less comfort does sounds much like watered down beer.

12:18 - Which kinds of domestic vehicles to you 'patriotic' Americans buy? The Chevy Aveo's made in Korea or the Ford Fusions made in Mexico?? At least when it the engines blow up at 60,000 miles, you can park them in the yard and paint a flag on them or something as a lawn ornament. I think I'll stick to Toyota's and buy something that runs instead of something that makes me more 'patriotic'.

Having sold both Imported and Domestic trucks, I personally would prefer a Domestic truck over an Import if I were in the market for a full-size truck. I'm not so sure that I would go with a domestic mid-size pick-up however. That's just my personal opinion.

Having said that, I really think that this import vs. domestic debate is rather uncalled for, as people should simply buy what they like and what best serves their needs and budget. Furthermore people need to stop worrying about what their neighbors buy or where it is made. (Most of these trucks are built in America by Americans by the way.)

I also wonder if those "I only buy American, Patriots" who are calling import owners less than patriotic, have ever stopped to think where their microwave, DVD player, refrigerator, television set, cell phone, and virtually everything else in their homes were made...

This entire debate evokes memories of McCarthyism to me.

"10th Feb 2009, 05:54

I also wonder if those "I only buy American Patriots" who are calling import owners less than patriotic, have ever stopped to think where their microwave, DVD player, refrigerator, television set, cell phone, and virtually everything else in their homes were made..."

Show me one made in America and I'll buy it. Or do you want the remainder of American manufacturing to leave, too?

"I also wonder if those "I only buy American Patriots" who are calling import owners less than patriotic, have ever stopped to think where their microwave, DVD player, refrigerator, television set, cell phone, and virtually everything else in their homes were made..."

I'm one of those "Patriots" (and I never thought I'd hear fellow citizens actually ridicule that word) who buys from American companies. And YES, I DO think of where other items we purchase come from. Our microwave was made in Ohio (28 YEARS ago), my CD/DVD player was made in the U.S., my TV was made in the U.S., and though we have a few items that are made by foreign companies, it is only because we had no domestic source for them.

People who DON'T bother to research where their purchases come from are in great part responsible for our current economic woes. As for full-size trucks, thankfully no one other than domestic makers now build them anyway.

The argument that buying imports is unpatriotic is ridiculous. Guess what? America is no longer a manufacturing country. China has basically taken over that role. When was the last time you saw anything actually made in the USA? Go to Wal-Mart, Home Depot, or any other large retailer and flip over those products. They are ALL made in China. In fact, most of the appliances in my kitchen are American made... but they are all at least 20-25 years old. Anything new is basically cheap, stamped together plastic junk meant to be thrown away in 2-3 years.

I used to be a power tool salesman. Guess what happened? One by one all the American-made tools we sold shut their US plants and sent them overseas. The same has been occurring with the US auto industry for decades and will likely continue to do so.

So if you want to get angry, get angry at those US companies who decided to offshore their labor. It isn't the fault of Japanese or European countries. Those Japanese and European companies (Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mercedes, BMW) have all built plants in the US because they can actually build their cars more efficiently and cheaper than they can in their own countries. This just comes to show that the big Three have been running an inefficient machine for years, for if they can't even operate in their own home turf, then they have some severe management issues.

If you want to truly be patriotic, then realize that in order to succeed, it's going to take ingenuity and intelligence to do so. Go to college. Send your kids to college. Research current and future trends. Go for those things and make innovations.

Lastly, the economy we're in now wasn't created by people buying imports, but rather people buying overpriced housing and the banks who foolishly lent money to unqualified buyers. I suspect that this recession will be extremely severe, and would be surprised if GM, Ford, and especially Chrysler survive.

20:52 "better products are available and people are buying them"

Sure has never been any competition for full size domestics ever from Tundra. If you own a 1988 Tacoma, why spend so much time with owners of new full size trucks. I would highly recommend everyone test drive and compare the Tundra to the full size new domestics. If you need a small used truck, I am sure there is a recommendation for a 1988 Tacoma small one. Do not count on it to be equivalent however.

By the way, I would take any new truck for a gift and then promptly sell it for one that has the most applications, features, best warranty and capability. It would not be a Tundra, but I would sell it for a more functional better full size domestic with far superior capabilities and better warranty. People are buying them and few Tundras in comparison. But somehow it will drift to small truck comments ,maybe Prius and small scooters no doubt.

This is from around comment 495.

"The story of GM is like a lot of older companies. They grew into a sleepy dinosaur, and ignored the changes happening around them"

"A good analogy would be Budweiser. Their beer is bland, tasteless, and cheap. Nobody drinks it because the stuff is "good". They drink it because it is cheap and simply sufficient. Then comes all the small microbreweries. At first they didn't care. They were still the biggest/baddest beer company on the planet. But slowly and surely, companies like Fat Tire, Sierra Nevada, and Sam Adams grew and became popular with primarily younger, more demanding Americans. Sure - good ole' Dad might still drink nothing but Budweiser, but the the future generation hates the stuff. Hence Budweiser is losing sales and as of last night, I saw their new "American Ale" on TV, which like GM - is a simply a catch-up product that they should've come out with years ago. Now they simply look like a cheap imitator and the younger generation will heed them no attention."

I think these observations are fascinating in maybe an unintended way. Almost every car magazine review of a Camry uses the word "bland." I read in a business magazine that in surveys of people under the age of 30, Toyota is viewed as being one of the worst automobile brands for value received for how much money you spent. Ford is quite a bit better at mid pack in that regard. Sorry I don't recall how any other brands fared.

Last year, the average age of Toyota buyers increased by a full year. Simply put, young people don't buy Toyotas. They see those as unhip and square as I thought my parents music was. (They also think the special effects in Star Wars look really lame.) Toyota saw these shifts in attitudes coming a long time ago and launched the Scion brand to circumvent this. How this fits in with the lower than expected sales of Tundras I am not really sure. I haven't been able to figure out what age group they expected to buy Tundras.

The young people I talk to seem to be completely clueless that any brand of vehicle can have significant reliability issues. They just think everything new is good and everything is going to last 100,000 miles.

Okay here comes another "off-topic" comment.

I don't think ANYONE here is "ridiculing" the word "Patriot".

"Last year, the average age of Toyota buyers increased by a full year. Simply put, young people don't buy Toyotas."

But they do buy Acuras, Lexus, Audis, Honda Civics, and Scions. The beer analogy is spot-on. But I'll extend it further. Let's not kid ourselves. A product is the most successful if it can appeal to a wide swath of the population. But just like beer these days, there is a distinct divide between the types of people who consumes them. If you drink Bud light, there's a pretty good chance that you're conservative, rural or perhaps living in the burbs, and middle aged. If you drive an Acura, there's probably a good chance that you're liberal, metropolitan and younger, as in 20-35 or so. Seriously - when was the last time you saw a good ole' boy driving an Acura or a yuppie driving a Ford truck? It simply doesn't happen.

I'm not picking favorites here. But perhaps this shows that the population and its demographic has changed as well as its preference for consumer goods. What's more, when shifts in demographics occur, you typically get some friction, which means those in the aforementioned groups, and particularly the shrinking group will cling more tightly to their lifestyles as a defensive measure.

Either way, companies have to adapt to these shifts. Otherwise they will fail.

"But I WON'T stand up on my soapbox and make claims about people I don't know; Whose lives are a complete mystery to me; Whose experiences are different from mine; And whose decisions are thus affected in such a way as to make them do something I won't. They may indeed be patriotic AND drive a Toyota... if for no other reason than that they lack your omniscience."

I don't feel that a person can be TRULY patriotic and at the same time help bring about the destruction of an entire American industry and destroy the lives of millions of our fellow citizens. The lame arguments that there are a handful of Toyota and Honda plants in the U.S., or that Ford outsources work to Mexico has ZERO bearing on the issue.

To speak of the U.S. No longer being a "manufacturing" nation is a slap in the face to every unemployed auto worker, service tech, car salesman, parts house employee or jobber that has been put out of work by those who have no concept of patriotism. In my area we now have over 1000 new unemployed men and women seeking jobs due to dealerships closing. NONE of these people had anything to do with manufacturing, and I doubt that they will be very sympathetic to the "don't buy American" crowd.

Off-topic is a good description for this whole thread. Here it is: when I buy vehicles, I'm not worried about what country I'm from, what country the vehicle was made in, I'm not thinking about patriotism, flags, or anything OTHER than -- is this the best vehicle I can get for the money?? Which is why I drive Toyota's. Because they ARE, along with Honda, the best, most reliable vehicles made. Anything else is a lesser quality product.

I'm very confused as to how a forum where owners discuss the pros and cons of the vehicle they own, has now turned into a debate on patriotism.

I own one domestic vehicle and one import - does that make me a patriotic or unpatriotic?

I'm so confused!

I wonder how so called uneducated, uninformed domestic good ole boys that swill cheap beer can actually afford a new $122,000 new 2009 GM Corvette with stock supercharged 630 hp LS9 extensive usage of carbon fiber components, carbon ceramic brakes.

Sorry but advanced technology may be obvious to a 20 year basic transportation Toyota owner to grasp. So you actually tested one and are an expert on all models.

Some of us buy not based strictly on price... but a weak watered down import warranty is definitely not a plus, as is bland uninspired transportation. Drive everything first hand before making recommendations with such a broad sweep. It's highly inaccurate. A person that hates a Corolla may like a Lexus; same situation.