2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - All Comments

"I don't feel that a person can be TRULY patriotic and at the same time help bring about the destruction of an entire American industry and destroy the lives of millions of our fellow citizens."

Then there must not be a single innocent person in this whole country then. At one time untold millions upon millions of Americans made things in factories. I collect antique radios from the 20's-50's. If I work on one, ALL of the components (tubes, diodes, capacitors, and cabinets) are made in the USA. There were hundreds of brands of radios too, and after that, TV sets, stereos, and Hi-Fi systems. All Made in America. But one by one, companies like Zenith, RCA, Crossly, Philco, GE, Atwater Kent, and others suffered the same fate: They were done in by cheap imports or the result of those companies outsourcing their manufacturing elsewhere. The US consumer electronics industry died primarily in the 70's. They are all long-gone now, and with it the millions of jobs that put these products on American shelves. I know for fact that every single person in this country has either a TV set, a radio, or a computer. ALL of them are made somewhere besides the USA. Thus when you say that people who buy foreign wreck US jobs, then you yourself are also guilty, and so am I. We all are.

But all is not lost. We have a choice in this country, and if one loses a job in one industry, then he/she has the right and ability to change to adapt. I work in the tech industry myself and prior to that was in another industry and had to make a dramatic change in my life by getting an education and learning new things. For those millions who are losing their jobs, they have the same decisions to make as I did, and thus it is their responsibility to make that choice, not mine. Do I like the fact that manufacturing is disappearing from the US? No, not at all. But the reality is inevitable. I imagine that any day now we will be getting cheap Chinese cars, and once we do, put one more nail into the Big Three's coffins. History happens. Life goes on.

"Those Japanese and European companies (Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mercedes, BMW) have all built plants in the US because they can actually build their cars more efficiently and cheaper than they can in their own countries. This just comes to show that the big Three have been running an inefficient machine for years, for if they can't even operate in their own home turf, then they have some severe management issues."

I think GM and Ford have never been allowed to build non-union plans on their home turf in the USA. Toyota, Honda, BMW have been allowed to build non-union plants. (Kentucky for Toyota, North Carolina for BMW.) Is this correct, or I am misinformed about that?

10:18 labeling a full size truck owner in a neat category may be difficult. Malcolm Forbes was a prime example on changing that viewpoint on who owns new Harley Davidsons. It crosses every segment, and you are likely to see executives, celebrities etc. now acquiring them.

Not everyone is a farmer that owns a full size truck, and even so, what's the difference? I am a boater, not near any farmland, yet own a new full size domestic truck. I see all summer long boaters with new full size domestics towing beautiful wakeboard/ski boats, even some Fountains at the ramps. I suspect they are business owners, young and older execs to enjoy this for recreation, and many of the tow vehicles are diesel Fords, Chevrolet and Dodge Rams. If you want to classify them you may be far off target.

I know individuals that own multiple new vehicles, and they have new trucks as yet another vehicle. My household has owned both import and domestics, so I cannot see any labeling applying. What I do so is taking away strictly price and searching, and buying the very best available.

I am not cruising around in an Escalade or Hummer Pickup, but I want a large list of practical applications and utility addresses or I am not buying. Test everything in your price range and then buy the new full size you like.

If someone drinks Bud or a Belgiam Trapist Ale, that's the last thing I address when I am in the showroom buying another new vehicle to enjoy with my family.

"I don't feel that a person can be TRULY patriotic and at the same time help bring about the destruction of an entire American industry and destroy the lives of millions of our fellow citizens. The lame arguments that there are a handful of Toyota and Honda plants in the U.S., or that Ford outsources work to Mexico has ZERO bearing on the issue."

I was careful to point out that these are MITIGATING issues. I also said that I'll be buying American because I agree if you or anyone else says that these points aren't sufficient to compose a completely compelling argument. But completely compelling or not, they are real considerations that lead people to buy without feeling twinges of conscience about their choice. Thus they suffer no crisis of patriotism.

If a buyer has had multiple problems with their domestics, they may feel that trying something else is necessary. They may feel very little sympathy for those who did such a poor job of assembling their last car if it was troublesome.

Nevertheless, they will salute the flag, and even give their lives on a foreign field for their country while you and others refer to them as something less than "TRULY" patriotic... simply because they have the unmitigated temerity to own a Toyota.

While this example is fictitious, it would require some kind of unbelievable intellectual blindness to think that there haven't been many of our fallen who owned a foreign vehicle. In truth you would never see them as unpatriotic if you met them. You may see them as misguided in their vehicular choice, but not unpatriotic.

And THAT is exactly my point. There are many who, for one reason or another, love their country but drive a foreign vehicle. You shouldn't be so quick to label people whom, as I said, you've never met, whose experiences aren't yours, and whose decisions are thus different from yours.

I own a Jeep Wrangler (very Patriotic vehicle) and a Saab.

Does this make me only half as Patriotic as a guy who owns a Ford Truck, but twice as Patriotic as a guy who drives a Camry? Or do I get bonus points because Saab is owned by GM?

Does anybody know the equation that would help figure this out?

So hopefully we are beyond labeling import/domestic and test thoroughly behind the wheel for our new 2009 full size pickups. If you are not in the market to buy, then printing any old thing is not a risk anyway. I say if you make the plunge, test and compare every single full size.

"Let's not kid ourselves. A product is the most successful if it can appeal to a wide swath of the population."

Most cars are targeted into more narrow demographic groups than one might think. The salesmen at car dealerships are trained to categorize people when they come in and steer them toward the vehicles they match up to. They aren't just being friendly when they ask if are married, have kids, where do you work, where did you go to school, did you watch the football game last night, etc.

You will notice you have been categorized sometimes if you keep insisting on looking at cars that are out of your target group. Some of the older salesmen have learned the demographic targeting is pretty accurate. They will get frustrated with you and say things that kind of sound like "will you stop looking at cars that eventually you will realize you will never buy and come look at something you might actually buy?"

A funny story I read concerning this is the Honda Element. It was targeted at adults age 20 to 30, but it didn't do as well as expected with them. But it turned out to be something of a hit with 50 year olds who see it as a great car for bringing home flowers and garden supplies. It is hard to get the marketing correct every time.

"I see all summer long boaters with new full size domestics towing beautiful wakeboard/ski boats, even some Fountains at the ramps. I suspect they are business owners, young and older execs to enjoy this for recreation, and many of the tow vehicles are diesel Fords, Chevrolet and Dodge Rams. If you want to classify them you may be far off target."

You exemplify the point. Again - who typically owns jet skis, boats and other toys they tow to the lake on weekends, and drive big honkin', typically US brand trucks? The same guys who drink Bud light, live in the burbs, are generally conservative, have zillions of kids, and shop at Wal-Mart. Sounds ugly, but it's the truth.

"Lastly the import vs. domestic argument is pointless."

Not to tens of thousands of Americans who have lost their jobs due to people who think "the import versus domestic argument is pointless".

People seem to think that buying a Toyota, Honda or Nissan is "patriotic" because there are a handful of (Japanese owned) factories in the U.S. employing a minute number of workers (at low wages with poor benefits). It is only "patriotic" if you are a citizen of Japan.

The U.S. auto industry is the backbone of our economy (and ALL prominent economists agree). To destroy it based on ad hype and myth is simply cutting YOUR OWN throat. Modern domestics have long ago surpassed ALL Japanese brands in terms of warranty, reliability and build quality. Do a bit of research on both economics AND vehicles before making such harmful statements. The F-150 is "Truck of the Year". The Tundra is history. At least we have that much to be thankful for.

"Modern domestics have long ago surpassed ALL Japanese brands in terms of warranty, reliability and build quality. Do a bit of research on both economics AND vehicles before making such harmful statements."

To the first point --- Domestic vehicles long ago surpassed ALL Japanese brands in terms of reliability, build quality and warranty. Thanks for the assertion. Here's another one. Bologna. Wrong. Incorrect. Reassertion doesn't serve to prove a point. Every study on that subject suggests that only NOW are American vehicles getting close to the average Japanese vehicle. Granted, you deny the outcomes of every large-scale study that doesn't support your preconception. But you should at least agree that GM's statement about how their quality and innovation had fallen below industry standards was a repudiation of your viewpoint.

Second point -- We should research economics and vehicles before making such harmful statements -- (that this argument is pointless), apparently. I've taken 5 economics classes -- with an emphasis on so called "free market" economics (not macro economics, though). I've read major publications on automobiles for years. It's sort of a hobby of mine. I just like good machinery. I've had a subscription to "Car and Driver" for years. I've also had subscriptions to "Automobile", "Consumer Reports", "Autoweek", and frequented various on-line sites with an automotive emphasis like "Edmunds", "About-cars", "Truedelta - I'm a member", "JD Powers" and "Inside Line Automotive News". Apart from that, I like to stop by all the local dealerships as new models are released because there's nothing like first-hand experience.

Anyway I'm probably not a part of the ignorant class into which you imagine those who disagree with you fall.

That aside, let me repeat -- This argument is pointless. Why? Because, while I agree with you that it's probably better to buy American than even a "Made in the USA" foreign vehicle, I think that the need by most on here to just assert a position without seeing a need to support it beyond their own experience, leads to argument with no point and no end.

It's the ARGUMENT that's pointless. The POINTS aren't pointless. It really DOES matter that folks are being laid off (according to every major newspaper). It MATTERS that most manufacturing has gone overseas (same source -- along with first hand experience at Wal-Mart, et all). It MATTERS that American auto manufacturing fell behind their counterparts (according to GM). It MATTERS that they are catching up (according to CR and JD Power). It MATTERS that tax dollars are being used to prop them (GM and Chrysler) up (according to the automakers, newspapers, congress). And finally it does matter that we consumers can help the situation (according to logic and the automakers).

Again, it's the argument that has become pointless -- and THAT only because of the MANNER in which some have chosen to argue. They don't support their points. They don't support them with appropriate research. They imagine that ridiculing and labeling someone else's perspective is going to achieve their ends. They aren't willing to change their minds. And when their arguments are as completely repudiated as an argument can be, they simply start all over and reassert their original point.

So... what's the point??

11:07 far off topic yet again. If you look at someone and can determine who and what they buy, it's a poor excuse for clearly asking what they are actually looking for.

A poor guy in a suit may have just left a funeral and may be a Corolla candidate. I could have been out cleaning my garage and bought a $60,000 sports car. I know of a saleman that sold yachts that ran over to the guy in the suit and had a very minor sale, while at the same moment a very plainly dressed gentleman bought a large yacht from another. As far as appearances he was a pauper.

Some of the Lexus models are not cheap; are they really necessary? Find a Toyota pickup that can drop a Fountain powerboat at the ramp. It's not excessive when you have a clear application and vehicle to address your requirements. If you do not own a late model full size again and again the small car, small truck may be inescapable to comprehend.

I would rather see each vehicle be compared to best applications and testing both import and domestics. I did and bought without worrying over brand loyalty... the best got my order.

11:09 I have done a lot of research. A lot more than you. Your comment about domestics passing imports in quality and reliability is completely baseless and incorrect. You can't back it up with a single fact. Because... all the experts still rate Toyota and Honda on top.

I don't care what you or anybody else thinks in the backbone of the country's economy -- I don't buy any type of sub-par product no matter what product it is. Which means I'm certainly not buying a Chevy or a Ford when I can buy a Toyota.

Not that patriotism has any bearing at all on vehicle purchase, but what the hell. Since we're talking about it, here's my take on it: the Big 3 are an embarrassment to automobiles and an embarrassment to any 'patriotic' American. If they were truly concerned about keeping Americans buying American vehicles, they'd have built better ones and not been outclassed by foreign companies.

Ford and GM deserve their due credit, for being the pioneers in the automotive industry.. they did a lot of things first. However, if I'm having brain surgery tomorrow, I don't want the first guy to do it operating on me, I want the best one. Toyota and Honda have taken everything that the Big 3 have done and improved drastically on it, while GM, Ford, and Dodge all got lazy, started cutting corners long ago and building cheaply made, shoddy cars and trucks. That's the reason Toyota and Honda have grown to such proportions in the United States. And it's also the reason that GM, Ford, and Dodge are lucky to be in business today - only due to government choosing to make the taxpayers keep them alive a little longer.

Make no mistake, these aren't my opinions. Anybody who watched them beg the congressional committee for money heard Rick Wagoner say that GM would be bankrupt by this PAST new year if they weren't given money. All of the domestic fans can rant and rave if they like, it makes no difference to a proud Toyota and Honda owner. The companies I choose to buy from have a reputation for quality, unlike Ford, GM, or Dodge.

You can pretend their 'near death experience' was simply mismanagement of money if you like, the world knows the truth: Toyota and Honda may suffer sales lapses too in a bad economy, but they're doing fine BECAUSE, even in tough times, people buy what they know is a quality product, which leaves the Big 3 out of the picture. If and when they ever get serious about building something worth buying, I'll look at them again when I buy. It hasn't happened yet.

"You exemplify the point. Again - who typically owns jet skis, boats and other toys they tow to the lake on weekends, and drive big honkin', typically US brand trucks? The same guys who drink Bud light, live in the burbs, are generally conservative, have zillions of kids, and shop at Wal-Mart. Sounds ugly, but it's the truth."

I don't find this comment "ugly" at all. It's basically true (except maybe the "zillion kids"), and not necessarily offensive. People generally ARE grouped rigidly into pretty tight demographic groups. As a former car salesman, however, I was taught NEVER to categorize people. I was taught to steer the potential buyer to another vehicle ONLY if it appeared that they could not AFFORD what they were looking at. If I walked onto a dealer's lot to look at a Mustang and was told it might be better if I looked at a Fusion, I would tell the salesman where to stick it and leave.

"But they (young people) do buy Acuras, Lexus, Audis, Honda Civics, and Scions."

When I read that I thought Lexus didn't sound right, but I thought of course the Honda Civic was correct. So I did some searching on the web.

Average age of Lexus buyer 61

Average age of Buick buyer 62

Average age of Toyota Avalon buyer 61

Average age of Audi Buyer 48

Average age of BMW Buyer 48

Average age of Honda Civic buyer 51.

Wow, the last one was a shocker to me. There are quite a few articles about it on the web. What I really feel embarrassed about is that is my sister-in-law age 56 just bought a Honda Civic, and now that I think about it, just about everyone I know that has bought a new one is older.

I'm not sure how that one slipped by me, except now maybe I am getting old enough that everyone below the age of 40 looks like a youngster to me. Or maybe it is because Civics are a common first car for a young person as a hand me down from Mom and Dad. But now that I think about it, all those young people with the hand me downs tell me they are going to buy something completely different once they have the money.