2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - All Comments

"Again - who typically owns jet skis, boats and other toys they tow to the lake on weekends, and drive big honkin', typically US brand trucks? The same guys who drink Bud light, live in the burbs, are generally conservative, have zillions of kids, and shop at Wal-Mart. Sounds ugly, but it's the truth."

I wonder if you took a consensus at any of the 3 boat ramps at Lake Havasu, Az. how much if any of the above comment is remotely accurate?

I am personally in agreement with "honkin trucks" that are small and large with ridiculous body lifts, 36" tires and tacky flash and trim. I have actually removed emblems for cleaner lines. I do believe in performance upgrades hidden under the hood.

Sacrificing ride and handling quality with the big lifts and tires is a waste. I had gone through that phase with 1 full size long ago and found a uninterrupted 8 foot bed, the lower the height the better, with nice street tires is the nicest trucks.

If you drive short distances or are caught up in adding tacky trim and lifts, that's your prerogative and your money. I am just giving my own observation on what makes a nice full size truck to drive distances with and without tow loads.

As far as conservative who drives small Toyotas.... perhaps families that cannot afford high end beer, have young families, elderly Camry owners that maybe shop frequently at Walmart. Sounds ugly but my observation is a more likely scenario. Walmarts sales volume was also up last year likely from the economy oriented folk shopping there.

"As far as conservative who drives small Toyotas... perhaps families that cannot afford high end beer, have young families, elderly Camry owners that maybe shop frequently at Walmart. Sounds ugly but my observation is a more likely scenario. Walmarts sales volume was also up last year likely from the economy oriented folk shopping there"

Driving sensible cars or shopping where prices are best does not necessarily reflect any particular deomgraphic or economic status. I live in a very upscale neighborhood and work with extremely wealthy clients. I often encounter my wealthy clients in the aisles of Wal-Mart (and did well BEFORE the economic crisis hit). Most truly savvy wealthy people seek out the best prices on things. Two of my favorite clients live in homes costing well over a million dollars and both drive Hyundais. While having a conference with one of our very wealthiest clients, he placed his keys on the table as we were talking. I noticed the Ford (NOT Lincoln) blue oval on his key and asked what he drove. "A Ford F-150" was his reply. Finally, when I was lunching with one of my best friends, who is an entertainer and performs all over the world, he mentioned that he planned to purchase a yacht and a new car. When I asked what kind of car, he replied "A Hyundai Tucson".

Not all wealthy people have the desire to spend lots of money simply to impress others. Many regard needless spending as silly. I am told that one of America's wealthiest men lives in the same modest home he has lived in for decades.

It is becoming harder to "pigeon-hole" people based on their appearance, profession or income level. The U.S. is a very diverse country. The teenager delivering pizza to us drives a Mercedes CLK. The world-traveling heart specialist down the street drives an F-150.

11:56's comments have been my experience too. Wealthy people do not get where they are by throwing money away, or concerning themselves with exhibitions of wealth like fancy cars or expensive houses. Many of the people I know with these types of things do not really own them anyway. They are all financed/mortgaged to the hilt and sadly having a really tough time paying for them. A large portion of the homes in my county are empty (repossessed) and/or unfinished mcmansions. I don't know what is going to be done with them. Maybe they will be torn down and replaced by more realistic homes like I grew up in (and still live in now) and people used to be perfectly satisfied to live in?

But you had to be as blind to not see this horrible situation coming. It was so frustrating to see it happening and have our politicians be completely clueless. Now they want to continue the same policies (creating and spending money we don't have) that got us there in the first place. I think eight years of unmitigated neocon rule and now the socialist pork bill that Obama just signed might be the final nail in the coffin for our country. I think I will be living a much more simple life and turning to God (as I should have been doing all along) from here on out.

"I think eight years of unmitigated neocon rule and now the socialist pork bill that Obama just signed might be the final nail in the coffin for our country. I think I will be living a much more simple life and turning to God (as I should have been doing all along) from here on out."

That might be true if that were actually the case. The reason we are in the situation we're in is because for close to 30 years - yes that means as far back as Reagan - the largest lobbies in Washington are ALL either real estate, investment banking, or mortgage related lobbies whom are the biggest contributors to political campaigns. That includes both parties, Presidents, Senators, Congressmen, and so on. Untold hundreds of millions of dollars per year from real estate and mortgage industries alone. All in an effective effort to get politicians to look the other way as these industries became more and more deregulated and chaotic.

Turning to God is fine. But turning to Politicians and getting them to stop accepting outright bribes from corporations and industrial groups is the way to fix this problem.

And then there are car enthusiasts who buy the cars of their dreams after their home is paid for, and their children's educational needs are addressed.

I also did not take out car loans, I flipped a property.

It's not to impress, but to really enjoy from working smart.

I heard the number one credit card from millionaires is a Sears card. The only issue I had with the Walmart comment was that only new domestic buyers with zillions of kids and drink Bud shop there. I agree that's off base. I could care less who and where I shop or who sees what I drive. But I like driving great handling cars. Boring, uninspired appliance new vehicles are fine as basic transportation, but we love driving and can afford without a loan.

"Wealthy people do not get where they are by throwing money away, or concerning themselves with exhibitions of wealth like fancy cars or expensive houses."

I agree. From what I have observed, the people who earned the money drive sensible cars. Fancy cars are driven by people who inherited the money, or just got the cars on credit and don't really have the money.

I am kind of having an interesting time watching the automobiles of my nice neighbors two blocks away that last year tore down a $500,000 house and spent $2,500,000 building a nice house so they could be next door to their elderly mother and father. You know they don't care about the fact their house will never be valued anywhere near what they spent building it since it is so much more expensive than any house within a half-mile radius of them.

They own one of the biggest construction firms in our small state, and I see their names in the paper on the lists of contributors to miscellaneous elected officials in dollar amounts that would buy most of us a nice new car. I think they drive what they like and don't care what people think about it. What I see in their compound are some sensible cars for weekdays. I see a Sable, a Civic, a Focus, an Acura TL, some kind of big Buick SUV, a C class Mercedes and a Mercedes SLK. There are a couple of other cars I can't remember. But then sometimes on weekends when the garage doors are open, we see a Ferrari, a Maserati, and a Lamborghini. It kind of makes me wonder what I would drive if money truly were no object.

I mentioned this on another review. I live in Delaware and know a family with a Ford Ranchero wagon in the garage. It's not their only car, but it is still registered. But they also own 6 airplanes. Cannot go by what people drive or dress. It's likely more relaxing when going out with less security issues and/or unwanted attention.

But we recently had individuals paying very high six figures for low # active De. registration tag #'s for the back of their cars. The last was $675,000. Just for an active low # tag before buying a car as De. is a small state with an affinity for # tags. And the tags appreciate. I have had my low tag for 3 generations and it has appreciated greatly. It was on my grandfathers car first. Whatever makes money, if you have it to invest where it counts.

"That might be true if that were actually the case. The reason we are in the situation we're in is because for close to 30 years - yes that means as far back as Reagan - the largest lobbies in Washington are ALL either real estate, investment banking, or mortgage related lobbies whom are the biggest contributors to political campaigns. That includes both parties, Presidents, Senators, Congressmen, and so on. Untold hundreds of millions of dollars per year from real estate and mortgage industries alone. All in an effective effort to get politicians to look the other way as these industries became more and more deregulated and chaotic."

This is one of the most concise and best summations I have seen of our current economic mess. And with regard to our auto industry, it has not been just a case of people being manipulated by ad hype from Japanese companies. If the U.S. had universal health care (like all other civilized countries do) our auto makers would not be in the mess they are in. They have to pay BILLIONS in health care for current and retired employees, cutting deeply into operating expenses and profits. The U.S. is the only civilized nation on Earth that sits idly by and allows our poor, elderly and children to die for lack of medical care. It's ironic that the current bailout would have paid for healthcare for every man, woman and child in the U.S. Maybe someday we'll grow up as a nation if we don't go bankrupt first.

"the largest lobbies in Washington are ALL either real estate, investment banking, or mortgage related lobbies whom are the biggest contributors to political campaigns. That includes both parties, Presidents, Senators, Congressmen, and so on. Untold hundreds of millions of dollars per year from real estate and mortgage industries alone. All in an effective effort to get politicians to look the other way as these industries became more and more deregulated and chaotic."

The solution is not to regulate industry. It is Washington who accepts all of the special interest money you mention and needs to clean out their own house. We tried regulating the banking industry, requiring banks to loan money to people who could not afford to pay them back. Now the banks are in trouble because of all the bad debt they have on their books. The government's devious response to have taxpayers buy up all this bad debt that it (government) created so they can slither in and take over the industry.

The real corruption in the banking industry is the Federal Reserve system, where we have a group of unelected and unconstitutional banking authorities controlling our monetary policy to profit themselves, while blindly running the economy into the ground with their flawed economic models.

"The U.S. is the only civilized nation on Earth that sits idly by and allows our poor, elderly and children to die for lack of medical care."

I have relatives in Germany, England and Canada. All with socialized health care. All with much worse health care than in the United States. 75 years old and need a heart bypass operation? Denied in every country except the US. If US citizens ever have to endure what other countries get for health care, there will be riots here. Your wife needs an "emergency" pap smear in Canada? There is a six month wait. So people come down to the US and pay for what they need.

All the rest of the comment that came from I whole heartedly agree with however. Overly generous benefits to workers and retirees of domestic car companies have been crippling to them. I am amazed at how competitive the domestic cars are considering what disadvantages they are forced to deal with.

Business owners no doubt also have some definite tax advantages, buying some pretty nice new vehicles, and also insure under the business with other fleet vehicles. My concern is increasingly seeing more and more vehicles becoming increasingly boring with the potato-bean shape underpowered, uninspired vehicles that no doubt sell, but why is my question. My friend with her new Prius cares zero about cars, just a vehicle that gets her there. Maybe she finds enjoyment reaching the destination afterward, but not driving there. I enjoy driving vehicles, and granted this is a full size truck review, so it's a truck.

The potato shape may work well in a wind tunnel, and there is more fitting people inside to consider than design and handling in many cases. As an example, I had a new Datsun 280ZX 2+2 (back seat) in 1982 that still was my "family car" with young children and it was a very nice design, fun to drive although a bit underpowered but I enjoyed it.

When my kids got older I had 2 seaters and a family car that was still performance oriented at least. It would be nice to see some more inspired designs that are fun to drive and a vehicle you want to run to and drive. I would be so disappointed to drive many of the 2009 vehicles I'm seeing. I hope to never lose my zest for driving - maybe when I am old and poor sighted that may not be a factor and I'll just write a check for a bland car and hand me the keys. Maybe driving is just becoming a basic appliance for many people.

My good friend in Canada lost his mother last year. She spent 31 days in intensive care. The bill? $0 thanks to Canada's excellent health care system. My mother spent 3 days in intensive care some years ago. Her bill was $37,000+. I'll take Canada or the UK's system ANY DAY over ours. My friends in Canada and the UK constantly rib me about our "barbaric" health care system because it helps only those who are wealthy and allows the poor to die without care. That IS barbaric. I'd rather wait 30 days for an elective procedure than die because I can't pay $20,000 an hour for a surgeon's new Mercedes. If we had socialized medicine it would increase the productivity of our country and save billions in tax money. By denying people health care we allow them to succumb to easily treatable conditions and end up an even BIGGER drain on taxpayers.

"My friends in Canada and the UK constantly rib me about our "barbaric" health care system because it helps only those who are wealthy and allows the poor to die without care. That IS barbaric."

Yeah... particularly if it were true. Most hospitals either won't or can't by law turn away a patient based on their ability to pay -- something about that "do no harm" thing. So this isn't about the poor being left to die. It's about cost, efficiency, and quality. In fact the poor and the rich are fine. It's the self employed and uninsured middle class that are the real issue because if they get seriously ill, they may go bankrupt trying to pay for care. Once they are bankrupt they're covered. Then they will qualify for medical assistance.

My wife had worked for public health both providing direct care and assessing for other agency care for 10 years. Now she is the director of a hospice and homecare program in central Minnesota. These issues are a daily reality for her. There is a very real healthcare gap problem.

But will socialized medicine help? It may or may not depending on how it is implemented. Right now, for example, insurance creates a major cost vs. care issue. Years ago, before large sums of people were insured, care was less expensive for a couple of reasons.

#1 Insurance separates cost from care. So patients naturally want the latest care regardless of cost. Before that was the case people had to look at the cost of a procedure and providers had to keep costs down if they wanted to get paid.

#2 Insurance companies are deep pockets that just spread out the costs among thousands of people. So without these deep pockets care HAD to be less costly.

If the government solution is simply to insure everyone, the end result will be excellent care but at even higher prices than today... even though caregivers wouldn't have to defray the costs of non-payers among paying "customers".

I think this would be the case simply because the government is inefficient at most things and because adding to the insurance roles only makes the afore-mentioned problems even worse.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but since this is a automotive site, the connection to healthcare is tenuous at best. This comment among others is really a prime example of what "off-topic" really means :) So... can we get back to arguing about cars?

I posted this comment on another thread. It seems appropriate here too, so I'll just paste it:

"The biggest financial issue facing the U.S. auto industry is the huge cost of healthcare for workers and retirees."

That and paying their workers twice as much, a burdensome pension system, other "legacy" costs, union requirements that force manufacturers to use more workers than necessary to do any given job, and (lest we all forget) a major recession brought on by a collapse in the credit markets (credit people need to buy cars).

A long drawn out debate about "socialized" health care would be inappropriate to this blog. But, because it's been mentioned here and on other threads, I'd like to chime in.

All available figures related to the cost of such a system are mere estimates and not hard sums. The government doesn't know for sure how much this system would cost (or whether it would be more or less than the auto bailout). Some of the reasons (actually questions) for this are:

Will people overburden the new system every time the hypochondriac media says that a sniffle is a sign of cancer?

How efficient will the system be?

How efficient will the associated bureaucracy be?

Will inefficiency eat up benefits born of scale?

Will voters demand the Nth degree of care with the latest technology?

Will the government then need to regulate prices on medical supplies?

How high up the line will it go?

To keep costs down, will the government begin to regulate our choices (Do you exercise? Do you smoke? Do you drink alcohol? Do you drive a lot?)?

With each new area comes more regulation and more bureaucracy. Will that become unbearably expensive?

They don't know and neither do we. We just know that health care has gotten too expensive, so we're casting around for solutions. Because of Washington's pro/con culture, we can't be sure that those who compile figures are truly independent and covering all the angles.

My biggest concerns with this type of system are that:

#1 Over time it will almost certainly cost more than current estimates suggest (it IS the government after all).

#2 It will erode our freedom further as the government tries to keep costs under control by regulating risky behavior.

I'm not offering a solution, just a warning. Just because someone (even a sincere someone like Mr. Obama, for example) says that it will cost $XXXXXXXX, doesn't make it true. All such figures are little more than educated flights of fancy. Let's just hope and pray that they get it right.

I agree, if you are old, move to Canada, but I have had several neighbors that came down from Canada, transfers at both GM and Chrysler, that indicated it's very very expensive to live there. Maybe we can have our taxes raised tremendously prior to our retirement and much higher priced goods (I hope you do not smoke or pay what they cost per pack/carton in Canada for example).

Anyway, if you are old, move there for your poor health, if you are younger live here. If my health were an issue, I would likely select Costa Rico for dental alone. Maybe go on vacation, have Lasik etc done outside the country, but I still would prefer my own country for my medical.

Even better than addressing these health concerns on a car review... do not just read magazines, test drive everything in your price range before you buy. Don't get so locked up in a brand to not personally get behind the wheel and really like what you select. And get a decent warranty.