2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - All Comments

"The Crown Vic and Grand Marquis are dinosaurs. The only reason Ford still makes them is for police cars and cab drivers."

Ford doesn't "still make them", which is a shame because they were some of the most solid, reliable vehicles ever built. Our local police agencies sell these cars to the public when they reach 200,000 miles, and most people who buy them are very pleased to get them.

Many older people prefer driving larger cars such as the Crown Vic because of the comfort and much greater safety of larger, heavier cars. Many of our older friends have bought new Crown Vics and driven them for many years. They are virtually trouble-free, though a bit heavy on fuel.

I suppose now the older car buyer looking for a solid and safe heavy rear drive sedan will be out of luck.

"If the Japanese built body-on-frame rear wheel drive cars, it's doubtful that domestic governmental and quasi-governmental agencies would use them in any large numbers. In most areas there are enough people who feel that anything but domestic vehicles are unpatriotic that many governmental agencies don't include them in their fleets. Even county vehicles that don't get hard use are domestics."

If any of our governmental agencies ever bought vehicles from a Japanese company, I'd be on the phone to my elected representatives the second I found out about it DEMANDING that my tax dollars go to OUR OWN INDUSTRY. That is NOT a matter of "patriotism", it is a matter of my very hard-earned tax dollars being spent to enrich industries in other countries. That is just poor business. The quickest way any of my congressmen or other elected representatives can lose my vote is by hurting American industry, especially at a time like this.

"The Crown Vic and Grand Marquis are dinosaurs. The only reason Ford still makes them is for police cars and cab drivers."

If you want a good laugh, go visit in Florida to see the land of the dinosaurs. Tons of retired old people and lots of them are driving around in Grand Marquis. My parents have one too. When I visit, I enjoy driving it. I can't really say what it is. They just handle nice, even though I know there are lots of better cars out there now.

I rented a brand new loaded Crown Vic with leather etc. and really liked it. High MPG and very easy to exceed the 70 mph speed limit. I got out after a 3 hour run and totally comfortable and relaxed afterwards.

As far as Toyota styling I am not seeing any real styling trend setters... maybe Prius? Hardly. It amazes me the fascination bland styling, weak warranty to get somehow enamored over.

If you are spending 40K plus, not uncommon on a nice domestic full size, I see #1 applications/function, #2 performance/handling, #3 toughness, #4 100,000 mile warranty, #5 pricing/cheapness.

It seems when someone says they have owned a Toyota, GM, Chrysler, Ford so what "model" not a mfr. only... what year were they, purchased new or used or totally beat, mileage when acquired. What full size truck model do you own? I own a new GM Silverado, the category of this review.

00:07 Half a million miles is NOT rare for a Ford. Right... Ford has surpassed Toyota and is equal to Honda in reliability... SURE.

Here's the news: Honda builds THE best engines on planet earth - period. And Ford HA! isn't even in the same galaxy when it comes to engine design, performance, quality, or reliability.

Honda's ONLY possible rival, the only other automaker anywhere that makes something even close, is Toyota. 25 and 30 year old Honda CRX's and Civics were (and ARE) getting a few to several hundred thousand miles on them regularly. Ford?!? has a recent history of building cars like the Contour and the Taurus, the Contour might be the best example... dead in the water at 70,000 miles generally with a blown up engine. Ford isn't, and for SURE wasn't in the last few decades, even in sight of Honda in the quality department. Don't know what else to say.

You know, raving about how good you think domestics are here on one single website isn't going to change the fact that the 'Big 3' are not big anymore, are BARELY surviving, and WOULD be bankrupt and non-existent if not for the government bailout; especially GM and Dodge. They'd be ancient history by now. Better choices came to the United States decades ago - they're called Toyota's and Honda's.

"The only reason Ford still makes them is for police cars and cab drivers."

Actually Ford DOESN'T still make them. I checked CR and Ford's own site. CR shows it as a discontinued model and Ford doesn't have it listed among its cars anymore. Maybe they still make a police version or something. But it doesn't look like there is still a consumer Crown Vic.

"I've never seen a Toyota with half a million miles on it."

I remember an article on the "million mile club". In it there were a number of 80s Toyota pickups (22R engine I think). I haven't mentioned it before because I can't remember where I read it. I just remember the article and the picture of a guy holding up his million mile sign when his odo ticked over the magical number.

Really, though, you could nurse many vehicles over half a million miles. The question is what engine are you on? Transmission? How many rebuilds?

That has been a forte of domestic trucks. They can be fixed or rebuilt relatively cheaply with the abundant availability of aftermarket, rebuilt, or junkyard parts. They have also been easier to work on in the past with many a shadetree mechanic able to do passable work on them. So parts are more abundant and cheaper. Those with the skill to work on them are also more available.

These facts make it more possible and reasonable to repair rather than replace an older domestic truck. It's not that they're built for a million miles of service, but they can be MADE to last that long. It is a real consideration for someone who wants, for whatever reason, to keep their truck a long, long time.

Newer imports are so complicated and have such high parts cost that it becomes uneconomical to continue to repair them (for my family this has happened at somewhere between 200,000 and 240,000 miles).

The engines in ours were still in good shape as far as oil use was concerned. Neither one used ANY. But both started to have problems with head gaskets and other odds and ends (like alternators and A/C for example). Nickels and dimes (by the hundreds) were required to keep them going. It simply became too expensive and troublesome to keep them on the road. If they had been easier to work on and the parts had been less expensive, they might still be on the road.

21:31: I like the VTEC engine Honda (not any Toyotas) but there is no full size truck, and I hate deplorable Honda transmission issues.

Toyota sold few full sizes before, and certainly not currently as compared to domestics.

Have you even drove any, or is it somehow car discussions over and over on a full size truck review?

There is no import that can accommodate my full size truck application (for towing). Think a Honda can be a full size, so why discuss here? And the Tundra is limited also.

Ignoring applications does not fit many of us that buy actually full size trucks and market share. Lousy warranty does not help either to make any change, even if it was a candidate for myself and many of my friends that have new full sizes beyond the Tundras range.

"That is NOT a matter of "patriotism", it is a matter of my very hard-earned tax dollars being spent to enrich industries in other countries. That is just poor business."

Well, then why isn't there a major outcry about what brand of electronic equipment, etc. that governments are using? Your hard earned dollars are already enriching foreign industries. Your tax dollars are also being used to support foreign countries. That might just be poor business too. Why draw the line at cars only?

Furthermore (the lack of) "patriotism" was the idea (and word) brought up by yourself or someone else describing individuals who don't support American manufacturers. Then it was said that this lack of support (un-patriotism) was poor business... EXACTLY the same argument you made just now. So if this "poor business" practice is unpatriotic for individuals, it would be many times so for a government agency.

Using (presumably) your own argument, it's either "poor business" for both an individual and a government or "unpatriotic" for both. But the argument that it's one thing for the individual and completely different for the government lacks consistency. I was merely using the preferred word used by those who are making a similar claim to the one I referred to.

Otherwise, your comment furthers my point and provides an example of the belief structure to which I alluded.

I'm 19 and the very proud owner of a fully loaded 1998 Crown Victoria LX. Go ahead and drive all the Japanese junk you want, while I'm cruising around in a safer more reliable vehicle with a much classier-sounding name. Most people my age drive foreign trash, but I'm smarter than that.

"Newer imports are so complicated and have such high parts cost that it becomes uneconomical to continue to repair them (for my family this has happened at somewhere between 200,000 and 240,000 miles)."

But at the same time, domestic vehicles are just as complicated and in my opinion more difficult to repair. Good case in point is my brother's former truck, a Ford Ranger. On my Tacoma, there are four spark plugs with four spark plug wires, all inline on top of the block and within easy reach. It takes me maybe 5-10 minutes to change the plugs, wires, cap, and rotor. The distributor is even placed up front where I don't have to lean over. In fact, the water pump, alternator, oil fill and dip stick, belt idler pulleys and other regular maintenance items are all within easy reach, bolted or screwed on with a minimal amount of bolts, which are only 2 sizes (10 and 14 Metric). Additionally, all of the bolts are plated with corrosion resistant anodized coating making them easy to loosen since they don't seize with rust.

In comparison, my Brother's truck also had a 4 cylinder engine, but with 8 spark plugs mounted haphazardly on the engine block and in almost impossible to access locations. The whole engine bay was the same, which was that seemingly everything was just slapped in there with no regard for repairing or dismantling it. Doing even small tasks took forever. The wires and hoses were all over the place. The bolts were just painted steel and we broke many of them off trying to get them loose. The thing was a nightmare.

So the old-fashioned assumption that modern domestics are super-simple is an outright myth, and in fact the opposite is true.

"No they do not - they may be rear wheel drive, but they are not body on frame. Virtually everything is uni-body nowadays."

Thanks. I stand corrected. Why do you feel that uni-body is unreliable?

OK, one more time: If we are going to keep asserting that "Toyota is better" (or Honda either for that matter) we ought to be able to supply data to support it. Well, here is the latest data (from USA Today, March 20,2009). The latest long-term reliability studies by J.D. Powers and Associates shows GM and Ford TIED for first place, toppling former champ Lexus from the top spot. Buick (a GM vehicle) and Jaguar (a Ford product) tied for top ranking based on long term studies of 2006 models. No doubt today's models will test out as even MORE reliable. In addition, other top-spot winners were the Buick LaCross (beating out the Camry and Accord), the Mercury Grand Marquis (beating out the Toyota Avalon) and the Ford Ranger (beating out the Toyota Tacoma). In PREDICTED reliability, Consumer Reports has consistently ranked the Ford Fusion one or two levels above the Camry or Accord.

The USA Today article correctly alluded to the vast IMPROVEMENT in reliability of Jaguar AFTER ford took over their quality control. Unfortunately, Ford has now sold Jaguar to Tata motor company of India, so the quality will probably now plummet as Toyota's has in recent years. Of course they will still have the top-ranked Fusion. Ford has also ceased production of the large rear-drive Grand Marquis and Crown Victoria to concentrate on more fuel-efficient vehicles.

USA Today's own reviewers have recently bashed the Nissan and Toyota compacts, pointing out that the Ford Focus and even the bargain-priced Kia Rio are better alternatives. If an argument is to be made for sending our money to Japan, we ought to at least be able to justify it. Now it seems that even the "They're more reliable" argument no longer applies.

I'll support the best car makers in the world: Ford and GM.

To say domestic trucks do not last (e.g., obtain 500K+ miles) is absolutely preposterous. Someone earlier speculated that all high mileage domestics must have had their engines and transmissions replaced. While this person may actually believe that due to their obvious bias, the facts as usual prove otherwise.

Here are a few examples of domestic trucks that have gone ONE MILLION MILES with their original engines and transmissions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_Ou5vRTW90

http://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?ID=157

http://www.brandcurve.com/frank-oresniks-million-mile-chevy-silverado-for-sale-on-ebay/

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/04/another-million-mile-vehicle-97-ford-e-250-set-to-roll-its-odo/

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-18020.html

12:22 I wish I could understand why a 4 cylinder Toyota Tacoma owner is commenting on a much larger full size truck review?

I am glad to hear your plugs are easy to change and its cheap to operate. I have even heard comments on televisions on this review, which likely could be carried in the back of the small trucks as well.

Not everyone is so economy driven that I know that buy new full size trucks. They expect utility, function and practical applications in load carrying, towing. I personally feel it's wiser to buy a V8 engine to tow and carry loads in full size vehicles. You likely will consume the same fuel (MPG) and the vehicle works better overall under load. This is almost becoming an economy review more than function and practical application.

Expecting to translate a much smaller vehicle with a 4 cylinder on a full size truck review has dubious application relevance. I can see the car like comparisons 4 cylinder or economy, but why do individuals buy this category? As an owner I have tried to explain, but it seems it drifts off topic. I am hoping to see more actual full size model comments this year and newer... vehicle to vehicle comparisons sometime soon instead of filtering through equivalent same size-class vehicle comparisons.