2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

16:55 GM has a reputation for making cheap, crappy cars. Whether or not you admit it, it's still true.

And please don't reply and ask me to 'prove' that statement.

In general, in this country, GM and Ford now have a well-earned, lousy reputation for making disposable cars and trucks. Granted, for whatever reason, their cars are much worse.

Toyota and Honda especially are the gold standard. Please explain to me why they've gotten so many more favorable ratings than the domestics in the last 20 years, or why a Toyota holds a far higher percentage of its resale value through the years. I'd love to hear your explanation of that.

I'll be glad to go ahead and tell you why: they're built better, and have more life left in them as time passes than the disposable domestics do, and are therefore, obviously, worth more money as they get older.

You're only kidding yourself here. Funny how even GM and Ford concede that Toyota quality is above theirs. How you ask? Every piece of crap car they advertise is advertised as a 'serious competitor' to the Camry and Accord. The problem with saying that is, it's never true.

I even heard a Ford commercial that stated, and I quote... "now as reliable as Toyota". Which means, even in Ford's opinion of THEIR OWN CARS, they're admitting that Toyota quality exceeds theirs. Everybody already knows this, and, again, the problem with that commercial is that, yes, Ford self-admittedly wasn't as reliable as any Toyota, and they still aren't.

So, go ahead and write me another list of domestic cars with high mileage. I believe anything I read. If all of that is true, it still means nothing. Those kind of mileages, while an accomplishment for a Ford or Chevy, mean very little to a Toyota owner. We get it practically every time, get better gas mileage doing it, and our cars are worth more every time on trade-in, excluding whatever domestic cars that might be considered classics or collectors.

I agree, in part, with commenter 16:35, who is obviously quite well off (not everyone can afford $4 a gallon gas with a 7 mpg SUV).

We own a mid-sized GM SUV and it would cost way more to "panic trade" for a more economical car than the additional fuel cost for another 150,000 miles. Of course, ours gets 24mpg highway and 19 city, so the increase in fuel mileage of a smaller car wouldn't be all that much.

With that said, we are like all too many people in that our SUV carries only ONE person (my wife) 99.9% of the time. Even if we had 4 passengers, our small compact easily accommodates 4 people comfortably.

When it does come time to trade we WILL buy a 30mpg+ vehicle. High gas prices are here to stay, and the environment is in serious trouble. There is simply no excuse to buy something that just aggravates the situation. Although we, too, can afford $4 a gallon gas, this is our last SUV.

"6th Jul 2008, 11:50.

The point is, I will not allow you to condemn me or anyone else for having the brains to buy a better product even though it isn't made in the states."

At the same time, you should expect to be challenged when making broad-brush statements based on personal bias, referenced only by selective quotations and anecdotes.

The fact that you deliver these statements in an highly opinionated manner that is dismissive of the experience of others does not help you influence anyone, and should be expected to draw criticism.

I, for one, keep meticulous records of every vehicle I have ever owned, and know in detail what my average cost per month, average cost per mile, and maintenance intervals are. I even have the equations that describe the ownership costs for my vehicles. Thus, when you make a statement to the effect that "All Fords are junk" or "All domestics are junk", I have the documented evidence to dispute you. Some of us simply feel compelled to set the record straight when someone attempts to perpetuate this great myth of "unreliable domestics" and "infallible Japanese superiority."

"The point is, I will not allow you to condemn me or anyone else for having the brains to buy a better product even though it isn't made in the states."

I have an IQ that is 20 points higher than MENSA genius level. I think that qualifies me as "having brains". I buy domestics because my past domestics were reliable and my imports weren't. To me, that is a VERY intelligent choice. Even if it could somehow be demonstrated that imports were better, I'd still buy American because I'm knowledgeable enough about economics to know that the destruction of a major American industry would have very drastic consequences for ALL of us, including individuals who base their entire automotive knowledge on one 10-year-old truck.

11:50 brought up the kitchen and household appliance issue somehow comparing a quality comment to Toyota and the seemingly lack of new American products in our household.

If you look closer lately, I am not seeing Japan as much as you think. I am seeing Malaysia and Chinese products.

Here's a great example of planned obsolescence. They break with plastic lightweight parts, gears etc and they are throwaways. Yet here's a great example of domestics still performing. My mother bought 2 domestic vacuums built in North Canton Ohio for each floor, and has used them constantly since the early 80's. She has them lubricated cleaned reasonably at a the local vac shop. I found them well constructed. If you flip them over you have full cast aluminum bases and the top bearings can be easily removed, belt fan replacement is actually a simple do it yourself repair. I noticed this replacing her bulb other than that it's reasonable to drop off at a vac shop.

My wife on the other hand constantly buys new upright vacs that are expensive junk, completely full of plastic, and it's pretty, but they are crap and made overseas. My point is the same with import cars we have owned they have not been reliable.

Plus my young teen son sat on the hood of a new Honda Accord (not jumped), weight about 130, and he put a major dent in the hood. But it's a throwaway society anymore. Look at the steel and the weld quality on an older American made Schwinn bicycle, and then look at a new kids bike made out of scrap steel. Another example.

15:54 No, you don't have any documented evidence to dispute anything I said. Your Fords or Chevy's may have ran for a while, but the build quality still wasn't and isn't as good as a Toyota; not on the day you bought it.

You can have your opinions of course, but anybody can see that any Toyota is better put together than any Ford or GM, parking them side by side.

And to put a finer point on it, Toyota engines are so much better designed and built that there is no comparison.

Ahh... So we're now comparing kitchen appliances.

First of all, just try to find any appliances still made in the USA. None of them are.

Secondly, try and find any new appliances that aren't made out of cheap materials. I have a 6 year old Magic Chef gas oven/range. While it is assembled in the US, all the parts are from Mexico. The eyes constantly burn out the igniters. The igniter module burned out twice, and the front handle comes loose no matter how many times the screws are re-tightened. The gas burners also like to rust to the range top. Absolute garbage.

I'll agree - many things made decades ago were better. But regardless of where it was made, everything has gotten crappier over time because of competition and the desire to cut costs and corners. This is why most US manufacturing is history and why US factories constantly shut their doors. This is especially true with the US auto manufacturing industry.

"8th Jul 2008, 17:48

15:54 No, you don't have any documented evidence to dispute anything I said. Your Fords or Chevy's may have ran for a while, but the build quality still wasn't and isn't as good as a Toyota; not on the day you bought it.

You can have your opinions of course, but anybody can see that any Toyota is better put together than any Ford or GM, parking them side by side.

And to put a finer point on it, Toyota engines are so much better designed and built that there is no comparison."

So, you once again have nothing left but to revert to the same old "It's obvious that Toyota is better because I say so" and deny that anyone could really have owned a dozen high mileage domestic vehicles.

Toyota engines are "so much better designed and built" why, exactly? Because you think your old beater Tacoma is the best truck ever made? People present lists of trouble-free domestic vehicles they have owned, and your response is "Everybody knows that Toyota is better."

Obviously you're not prepared for any serious debate, but revert only to the same position that you hate American cars and industry, and worship Japanese cars, and no facts will dissuade you from those views. You "believe" all domestic cars to be junk, but the facts just don't support that belief. There is a difference between belief and fact. For example, your belief is not supported by the facts.

I don't own a truck, but I read these foreign v. domestic threads, and would like to throw my two cents in.

Toyota has excellent quality mechanically speaking as far as the engine, drivetrain, and A/C components. Other things you could make a case.

My mom has a 1996 Corolla. It has 142,000 miles on it. The engine, transmission and A/C are still it top condition. But currently the CV joints are shot, so it sounds like rollers when you drive it. The engine is loud and louder at highway speeds. You have to talk loud to have a conversation.

The ride is harsh, the front door keyhole has fallen in, which seems to be an extremely common problem for 90's Toyota's (just go to the junkyard). Also the trunk key lock is stuck so you can't open the trunk. But I don't drive it often, but if it got fixed, I wouldn't mind having it because it gets great gas mileage. So all in all, it's a good car, but not without it's share of problems.

Me I have a domestic, a 95, which is about the same age as my mom's Corolla. I've had it for two years, cost me $2800 and it refuses to break down.

Is it perfect, no, but it isn't the crap everyone refers to, plus it's a luxury car.

The only repairs that I've had to do to it that where absolutely necessary was replaced a temp sensor that got brittle and fell out the radiator, complete brake job, and I recently replace the alternator.

I also got a paint job (cheap GM paint) and repaired my A/C, which I could have prevented from going out when it did. I ignored the signs and my compressor seized.

I'm not scared to take it out on the road any day. Recently I did 900 miles in three days, 400 miles in one day alone. It didn't break a sweat. But I'm realistic about things too. I expect the transmission to go out in the 170k-180k range, and I currently have 139,000 miles on it. That's the mileage I see on the cars at the junkyard that are the same line as mine.

In conclusion, I say that people talk worse about domestics than they really are, and at the same token, people don't respect the mechanical quality of imports, which is undeniable.

I say in the end drive what you like. I thought people had choices in what they drive, and they should respect the next man in his choice. You don't have to drive their car everyday, so don't worry about it.

I have found that being closed minded in life can eventually prove costly. If someone wished to walk in a Honda or Toyota showroom, only each and every time, same model over and over, that is their prerogative.

My spouse elected to go that route for many years, and likely would have never looked elsewhere if not for mechanical issues commencing quite early on. She has a high disposable income (only as a comment), therefore enabling her to buy new within 2-3 years max. I do the same.

Questioning ones intelligence because they do not buy your favorite brand is pretty close minded. If you feel your comments/comparison have more credence than individuals with many new multi brand late model ownership/repair exposure that's your prerogative.

I fail to see how a 10 year old plus import vehicle mechanical/reliability evaluation has bearing on 2008 vehicles. In fact our imports 10 years ago were superior mechanically as well at that given point and time. I somehow feel there is some other issue beyond vehicles that

is definitely at play here. Too much animosity and not even remotely current.

But at any rate, some of us have owned a significant amount of vehicles mixed (import/domestic ) ownership and can easily derive a direct representation of good and bad models. It may be better to indicate if your comments may be based on a 1987 domestic model etc. and indicate you have little basis on the 2008's.

Well, in regards to how well newer "domestic" vehicles have gotten, In the last year I have rented two Chevy Cobalts, A Chevy Malibu (the last version), a Ford Mustang, a Pontiac G6, and a Grand Am.

Out of those 6 cars, 3 were hardly what I'd call acceptable. The quality of the Cobalts was embarrassingly cheap. The fit and finish of the body and interior panels was fairly crude. The engine was harsh and sort of clanky.

The latest one I drove was a fairly high mileage vehicle for a rental, with 30,000 miles. The interior was shot. The speakers were actually blown and rattled in the doors. The trim for the door panels where the locks and handle was painted silver. A lot of the paint was coming off. The seats were extremely worn. Lastly, the engine made this hideous whining sound as if something like a belt was rubbing on something.

The Malibu's E-brake cable actually came loose on the second day. The trunk lid wasn't properly aligned and we had to slam it to shut, sometimes taking two attempts.

The two Pontiacs were OK. Given that these were brand new cars, I wouldn't expect anything wrong to happen. The Grand Am was probably the best of the GM products I drove. It was large, comfortable, and fuel efficient. But even so, it made a terrible grinding noise the first morning we drove it. It stopped after awhile. The rental agency told us "they all did it". The C6 was fine. There wasn't anything remarkable about it, but it ran fine and didn't have any problems.

The Mustang in my opinion was better built than any of the GM products. If I had to choose, I'd probably go with a Ford. But even though this was a V6, it got HORRIBLE fuel economy. As in 15-18MPG.

To me, domestic vehicles are much the same as they've always been: hit-or-miss. You might get a "good one", but you're almost as likely to get a bad one too. I still feel that by and large, the batting average for most Honda and Toyota products is better.

Thankfully the subject of this review (and the related bickering) seems to be nearing an end, thanks to public opinion. This morning's news reported that Toyota is closing one parts plant and stopping production of both the Tundra and Sequoia at other plants. Hopefully this move will herald the end of the poorly-built, much-recalled and totally unacceptable Tundra once and for all. It has never been competition for real trucks (Ford, GM or Dodge), and has been a source of all too many problems.

The news article stated that Toyota, which had once been regarded as unstoppable no longer was. Also cited were the sales figures showing that Toyota sales dropped even MORE than GM.

The American public has spoken: The Tundra is NOT competition and sales drops by the big 3 have nothing to do with quality. The average Tundra now sits on a dealer's lot for over 2 months. Ads in this morning's paper offered $8,000 discounts on the Tundra. That's TWICE the discounts Ford and GM are offering on comparable vehicles.

I just read the same article from AP. The Princeton, IN plant will close, the Tundra and Sequoia will be terminated, Tundras sit on lots an average of 64 days, and Toyota sales dropped 21%, even faster than the average industry-wide decline of 18%. The article also quotes an analyst that Toyota is not immune to $4/gallon gasoline, and have been brought back down to earth.

Looks like Toyota has been forced to abandon the mid- and full-sized truck segment. The previous comment is correct: this domestic v. Toyota debate appears to be over.

11th Jul 2008, 11:07

I love selective reading, but it doesn’t offer the true facts of the situation, so allow me to fill in the parts that seem to be missing.

First Toyota is not stopping production of the Tundra and Sequoia, they both will still be produced, just not at the numbers that have been making them, as demand has fell due to gas prices. This is happening across the board with all truck producers. This has nothing to do with public opinion.

Second, I notice there is no mention of the GM, Ford, and Dodge plants that are being shutdown and completely closing. The only difference between those and Toyota plants, is that Toyota is not dismissing its employees and is moving different vehicles to those plants, like the Prius. That is correct, Toyota is still keeping the workers employed and paid, can’t say the same for those who are unemployed now from those closed GM, Ford, and Dodge plants. Here are a few things from the article…

“Toyota generally doesn't lay off full-time workers during shutdowns, as U.S. automakers do, and this will be no exception. The San Antonio plant employs 1,900 people, while the Princeton plant employs nearly 4,500, although only 2,000 of those build the Tundra and Sequoia, Goss said. All will stay on the job, along with 891 workers in Huntsville, Ala., who make engines for the Tundra and Sequoia.”

“Toyota's moves follow production cuts at General Motors Corp. and other automakers. GM said last month it is cutting shifts, reducing assembly line speeds and temporarily idling seven factories because of declining consumer demand for truck-based vehicles. Chrysler LLC recently announced plans to close a minivan factory and cut a shift at a full-size pickup factory, while Ford is cutting truck and SUV production, cutting salaried workers and ramping up production of the Focus small car.”

Finally onto the lose of sales by Toyota, yes they are of a higher percentage than GM, but this needs to be put in full context. The numbers are compared to a year ago, meaning in July 2007 Toyota sold “x” number of vehicles and this years number are lower by what ever the percentage is. Now to look at the full picture, from 2006 to 2007 Toyota was the only maker to see an increase in sales, where GM and Ford both have been showing loses in sales for the last 3 years. So, Toyota finally saw a drop in sales numbers that is still no where near the continuous sales numbers drops by GM. This just means that the slowed economy has finally reached Toyota, and does not mean Toyota is doomed.

"This just means that the slowed economy has finally reached Toyota, and does not mean Toyota is doomed."

No, just the outclassed and low quality Tundra and Sequoias.