2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

Pretty soon there will be no such thing as a domestic car anyway, since both Ford and GM announced today that unless they get government funding, they will be out of cash by early 2009. Of course much of this was caused by the credit market. But GM and Ford have been bleeding money for years, and from none other than having a poor product portfolio for years and years. They focused entirely on large trucks and SUVs.

GM makes the claim that they would've been stupid for not providing what the consumer wanted at the time. But they also failed to update their midsized and compact car segments. Back as recently as the early 2000's, their small car offerings were cars like the Cavalier, Corsica, and Buick Century. These cars were jokes and had zero appeal whatsoever, which was fine at the time since they made up a tiny segment of GM's total sales and profits. So they were ignored. In the meantime, Toyota and Honda have always kept a fairly trim, well-developed lineup of cars and trucks ranging from the Camry down to the Scion line. All with value built in, and more importantly - a better choice over what GM offered at the time.

GM and Ford have sort of gotten their act together and have a decent lineup. But for one thing, they made such garbage for so many years that those who might have been buyers long ago have written them off and largely ignore what they have now. Secondly, it's simply too late and the credit crisis is a real threat. I hope for the sake of the US economy that they get that cash infusion. But if they do, they are going to have to make nothing but extremely high quality, value-added vehicles.

In regards to "Imports" being unreliable, it's funny how all of these supposed factual anecdotal tid-bits claiming that every import they ever owned was a piece of junk. First of all, the same posters have this undeniable love affair with anything domestic, hence why would they buy an import since it violates their taste? Secondly, I don't know hardly any people with Toyotas or Hondas that have had any major problems with them. Most just drive them and do so for years and years without even worrying about it. I don't buy it.

I don't know why Ford and Chevy owners insist on trying to sell Fords and Chevy's to Toyota owners on a Toyota thread. Nobody I ever met that owned a Toyota EVER switched back to a domestic. Every time, it's somebody who is tired of Ford's breaking down and finally buys something well built, like a Toyota or Honda. Seems like every domestic owner that posts here gets 3 or 400,000 miles out of a Dodge or a Ford. You'll have to excuse me for not believing a single word of that.

I've never met a person that got within 200,000 miles of that out of a domestic. OK, my buddy has a Dodge Ram with a 318 that has a little over 200,000 on it. Just one domestic. The rest of the examples of seen, hundreds of them throughout my lifetime, never got there. 200,000, that's it... That is nothing for a Toyota owner. EVERY old Corolla, Tercel, Camry, etc. can do that and far more with no trouble. I've seen dozens of old Honda's, Civics and so forth with well over 2 or 300,000 miles. Not domestics.

Sorry, Ford, Chevy and Dodge just don't design or build them well enough to do that. If it happens, it's a fluke. So go ahead and tell stories about high mileage Fords. I'll believe it when I see it. I HAVE seen countless Toyota's and Honda's do it.

17:28 2 questions... care to once comment on late model Toyota actual mechanical issues on consumeraffairs.com and why are most import manufacturers standard new factory warranty only half or less? The excuse that it is not necessary to sell when in the same vein you are purporting high quality does not add up. It seems like the manufacturer may be dodging high warranty costs and expecting the consumer to carry low mileage major issues. That is why we are not buying them now and we bought many new ones.

I wonder how many individuals buying have been long term repeat import buyers vs. newcomers? I switched lately after owning new imports since the first gas crisis in the early 70's due to quality and mechanical concerns with newer Japanese models. There may be a lot more newer buyers entering and maybe a lot of us older ones dissatisfied leaving.

It would seem to reason that it comes down to who has the most complete lineup of fuel efficient vehicles with gas pricing. Lately the pricing has come down, and personally I prefer a roomier more comfortable vehicle with children involved. Being squeezed up and staring at a fuel gauge is not everything. But with the tight economy, it's definitely a factor.

"Back as recently as the early 2000's, their small car offerings were cars like the Cavalier... These cars were jokes and had zero appeal whatsoever."

You know the Cavalier was the best selling small car in the country into the 2000's don't you?

It seems the Tacoma guy can't get his time machine out of the 1980's. If you look through these reviews, you'll find HUNDREDS of former import owners who have switched to domestics because the newer domestics are MUCH more reliable, have better warranties, and are far more comfortable.

He may not know anyone who has swapped a Toyota for a Ford, GM or Chrysler, but I know quite a few. 99% of the ones I know traded a Camry for a Fusion or Chevy Malibu. One of them traded a Camry for a Ford Escape.

As comment 03:11 makes a VERY good point. If Japanese cars were so reliable, why on Earth WOULDN'T the manufacturer give them a good warranty? Sounds like fear of too many repair issues to me.

22:32 It also seems like it should only be full size pickup truck comparisons on a full size pickup truck review. The import owners keep switching to very small car comments. If you are commenting on a Tundra, Ford F Series, Silverado, Titan, Ram models and less about Prius, Tacomas and especially cars over and over it would make the most sense. I would like to see everyone buy a new vehicle and stir up and stimulate the economy import or domestic. I find little benefit reading about small cars when the focus could be on load carrying, towing, warranty and full size mechanical issues on new full size pickup trucks. And again who is the first import owner that is ever going to comment on consumeraffairs.com with Toyota late model issues? Its there.

3:11 The warranty argument DOES hold up, plain and simple. Toyota doesn't need to offer the same kind of warranty GM does. People buy Toyota's knowing they're extremely reliable and are not that concerned about the warranty. GM doesn't make good enough vehicles to pull that off; that's it. People know they won't last nearly as long as a Toyota and will only concede to buy one if GM offers a long warranty.

If I'm the guy that owns Toyota, I'm offering a 36,000 mile warranty, and STILL outselling GM, why am I going to spend more money offering a longer warranty when I don't have to? It's common sense.

If I'm the guy that owns GM and I see Toyota kicking my a** around the block because I know my company has a reputation for making disposable cars, what are my options? I don't build them as well as Toyota, so my only option is to offer a longer warranty for when they DO break down. Again, common sense.

It's sad really. When GM goes under, it's going to put a small dent in the economy, and as an American, that bothers me. It's only a matter of time. They can't keep losing billions of dollars and stay in business. In fact, the last article I read on my homepage said that GM is at the point where they have just enough money to function. It bothers me that an American automaker doesn't care enough to make a car, or truck, that can compare with a Japanese automobile.

This is no ones fault but theirs. Make a decent product and people will buy it. That is what Toyota and Honda have proven. GM's constant losses prove that if you make junk for long enough, Americans get tired of it and look for a better product, even if it's from a foreign company.

I know where the money goes when I buy a Toyota. Overseas. I also know that I'm going to keep buying them because they don't break down like the garbage Fords and Chevy's I've owned. What am I supposed to do? Buy a GM out of patriotism and have it empty my wallet with repairs in the long run? When I can buy a Toyota, do routine maintenance and drive it for 300,000 miles without a single issue? That's an easy decision for me. I work too hard for my money to trade it for a junk GM or Ford when Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and even Hyundai offer a much more reliable product.

"When GM goes under, it's going to put a small dent in the economy... It bothers me that an American automaker doesn't care enough to make a car, or truck, that can compare with a Japanese automobile."

GM's problems are NOT vehicle related, but management related. It has to be the worst run company on the planet. It is way too top heavy with too many managers, has too many brands and too many long term expenses (i.e., health care, pensions, etc.).

If you want to bash GM for the way it is run, I will do so right along with you, as it is appalling. But do not say GM's problems are vehicle related, because that is just not true. By contrast, it is Toyota that is having significant issues with quality control (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html), and people are finally starting to catch on whether you want to admit it or not.

Likewise, you might have also seen that Toyota's sales are way down too.

"If I'm the guy that owns Toyota, I'm offering a 36,000 mile warranty, and STILL outselling GM, why am I going to spend more money offering a longer warranty when I don't have to? It's common sense."

Thanks for making our argument for us. If it means Toyota has to "spend more money offering a longer warranty" that is a clear admission that Toyota would have to make more repairs at their own expense. It's nice to finally see an admission of this.

Domestic trucks don't last? Tell that to these owners with 1 million miles on their trucks and the original engines and transmissions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_Ou5vRTW90

http://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?ID=157

http://www.brandcurve.com/frank-oresniks-million-mile-chevy-silverado-for-sale-on-ebay/

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/04/another-million-mile-vehicle-97-ford-e-250-set-to-roll-its-odo/

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-18020.html

22:50 since the number 1 spot is how you perceive best quality, then explain how GM has held the number 1 worldwide sales spot for over 76 years? 6.7 million vehicles compared to 7.05 million vehicles in 2008; is this the wide gap you are mentioning?

Why not double the Toyota warranty based on how superior the logic of needing no service to 300,000 miles? Wouldn't cost more or would it?

One mechanical failure out of pocket on your next vehicle purchase say $4-5,000 may quickly change your viewpoint on warranties. Feel lucky this has evaded you so far.

I also feel badly when someone works very hard, maintains a vehicle and then gets a major mechanical issue at low miles. If it were not for this very issue, there would be another new Japanese sedan in our driveway.

Why offer zero financing on new imports to stimulate sales? Toyota recent sales are down 32% from a year ago. How come the G6, Aura, Malibu sales are higher than Camry? With increased production, quality better remain or customer retention will likely lose many of us. You can have new customers, but some of us have bought many new cars and are only loyal to a point.

I know some diehard import owners refuse to believe in consumeraffairs.com, but it's there for a reason. I also believe in Carfax including "new" vehicles with more than a handful of miles on the clock. I also believe in driving more than 1 brand and comparing them. I'll do it again and buy on more than a name, only it has to have great drivability, features, benefits and a decent warranty on as much as vehicles cost today. Everyone should have the same warranty, what's the big deal? It was a big factor in keeping us and buying a new vehicle again.

"I know where the money goes when I buy a Toyota. Overseas"

This is sad. The commenter must be one of the very few Americans NOT affected in some way by our current economic crisis. At this time, with my job prospects very uncertain and many of my friends and neighbors out of work, there is simply no way I could justify the destruction of an industry that employees over 12 million Americans. If the U.S. auto industry should fail, we would be facing a crisis on a par with the great depression of the 30's... LITERALLY. Even if imports were BETTER than domestic vehicles (and there is evidence to the contrary) I could never justify buying one at this time.

To be willing to destroy the U.S. economy, as well as do serious damage to the world economy, just to hold onto an ingrained prejudice based on one bad experience with a 20-year old used domestic vehicle is not easily justified. What good will your Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans be to you if we cannot afford to keep roads repaired to drive them on or if we are unable to work and can't buy gas?

Every 7-Series BMW purchased is equal to one year's income for an American auto worker. Every Camry or Accord is equal to the yearly income of the average employee of an auto parts store or jobber. I WON'T be sending my money overseas. It will stay right here where it can benefit me, my friends and my neighbors.

12:17 You misunderstand. I didn't make your point, I proved it untrue. I made my point.

Here's another way to look at it: I see two cars on a sales lot, close in price, a GM and a Toyota, sitting next to each other, and I'm going to buy one... why would I buy the Toyota with the shorter warranty instead of the GM? Because I know that the Toyota is the far better car, and while GM may have the longer warranty, I'd rather just buy the car the will get me to work every single day and NOT have to worry about towing my GM, with the long warranty, to the garage.

And this is what is happening in reality. Toyota and Honda cars are THE top sellers in the United States. Have been for about a decade and a half, and will continue to be. With a shorter warranty period. Because people want a good car, not a warrantied piece of junk.

12:15 Your 'patriotic' pleas don't mean much. First, the auto industry comprising only a very small (tiny) part of the U.S. economy. GM going under isn't going to collapse the U.S. economy. If you want to buy that crap, feel free. And if GM were so high and mighty, they wouldn't be building cars overseas (like the Korean Aveo as just one example) when they could be employing American labor.

Second, if GM were to actually build a decent vehicle, people might buy them right here in America and not be forced to look to Japanese automobiles to find something of quality.

As somebody who goes to work everyday and contributes to the economy, my paycheck is hard earned. And in those times every several years when I shop for a vehicle, I'm spending my money on the best product I can get my hands on for the money. And it's never a Ford, GM, or Dodge when I can buy a much better Honda, Toyota, Nissan or Hyundai. Many years of driving experience have proven this to me. I know which ones are built right and which ones are built cheaply. And which ones cost me money and break down and which don't. My Toyota's never broke down. All my domestics did. Repeatedly.

GM's problems are complex. In many ways, it comes from decades of running a company with bloated upper management and totally inefficient systems developed back in the industrial age when doing business in the US was totally different. I also agree that they have way too many brands and do way too much badge engineering. They also seem to have a talent for coming out with the totally wrong types of vehicles at the wrong time - like bringing out crossovers and advertising the heck out of them during the fuel crisis.

The second part is that they simply built sub-par cars and trucks for years on end. They had no reason to improve because their sales were still very good. The SUV/Truck craze gave them even less incentive to improve.

A good analogy would be Budweiser. Their beer is bland, tasteless, and cheap. Nobody drinks it because the stuff is "good". They drink it because it is cheap and simply sufficient. Then comes all the small microbreweries. At first they didn't care. They were still the biggest/baddest beer company on the planet. But slowly and surely, companies like Fat Tire, Sierra Nevada, and Sam Adams grew and became popular with primarily younger, more demanding Americans. Sure - good ole' Dad might still drink nothing but Budweiser, but the the future generation hates the stuff. Hence Budweiser is losing sales and as of last night, I saw their new "American Ale" on TV, which like GM - is a simply a catch-up product that they should've come out with years ago. Now they simply look like a cheap imitator and the younger generation will heed them no attention.

The story of GM is like a lot of older companies. They grew into a sleepy dinosaur, and ignored the changes happening around them. But despite this, I wish them luck. They are part of our national identity, and the sooner they can get back on track, the better.