2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

I totally agree with comment 12:37. My experience with Toyota has been identical. I'm not impressed with anything about them, from the rough-running engines to the jerky automatic transmissions to the puny warranty (which is only a third that of domestics).

Unless I see some drastic improvement, I will not buy a Tundra. It is not superior as far as ride, comfort, handling, room, bed capacity and towing as my GM.

I do not know why the import dweller keeps harping on cars and even small pickups. This is a dedicated category. They say they do not have to drive a vehicle to test them out. Seems pretty ridiculous when you are looking at full size trucks not to test 4 or 5 thoroughly.

I drive over 30,000 miles a year and tow during a lot of that. My family participates in the buying process as they spend a lot of time in my vehicles as well. Dependable and safe towing is important as well as the far superior warranty.

I will at least look at Toyota Tundra again and buy the one with the most utility, features, warranty etc. I am not driven strictly over price; the utility aspect is extremely important. A weak warranty that is gone in a year and a half in our driving is unacceptable.

My last Silverados ran 80,000 miles plus with no issues other than tires, brakes and frequent fluid changes due to heat and towing applications. And yes they were not 20 year old vehicles and complete history known as we bought them new. No doubt of neglect or delayed maintenance issues. In summary more utility, function and far superior warranty has garnered our family business.

"Lastly - to the guy who keeps using the consumer guide link as 'proof'... I'd suggest you take a gander at the Chevrolet section. There's your proof."

The point, which you seem determined not to address, is that Toyotas are not infallible as so many people here are resolutely claiming. They are quite the opposite actually, whether you chose to admit it or not.

I do not think anybody here is trying to suggest all American cars are perfect, only much better than Toyota's in most instances. I simply do not see American cars as a whole experiencing widespread engine failures on low mileage late model vehicles like Toyota's are.

I personally know multiple Toyota owners this has happened to, one of whom is a friend of mine who I had to loan money to for a new car after it happened to them. You might not want to accept the truth, but Consumer Affairs clearly indicates that these are not isolated incidents.

Want further proof? Take a look at these reviews right here on carsurvey as examples, EACH ONE DOCUMENTING A LOW MILEAGE ENGINE FAILURE:

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_6536.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_22516.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_21861.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_82050.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_85237.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_23139.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_23244.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_10591.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_25332.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_40999.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_33044.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_28023.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_15901.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_33248.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_73957.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_41126.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_70471.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_26098.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_37987.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_38217.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_67466.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_28054.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_107525.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_85094.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_21502.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_48643.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_49621.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_97335.html

I could go on, but am tired of copying and pasting these endless horror stories...

I would hate to bring the conversation down to this level, but perhaps I should be the one telling you to "deal with it..."

"Well, it's also the "opinion" of the vast majority of the American public, "

Oh? Domestic vehicles still count for 47% of domestic sales. The other 53% are not all buying Toyotas, or even Japanese cars. Sounds like a minority, rather than your "vast majority". I know you want it to be true, but it isn't. Sorry.

To 08:55. No, rentals are not always the "cheapest" models and it is a myth that they are somehow "abused" because they have multiple drivers.

I currently drive a 2001 GM car that is a former rental. It has every option except leather and a moon roof. It has alloy wheels, rear spoiler and every conceivable power option. It has been one of the most reliable cars we have ever owned.

My family has also owned a Buick and a Toyota that were former rental vehicles. The Buick was recently sold with 270,000+ totally trouble-free miles. The Toyota was sold with 100,000 mostly trouble-free miles.

What people fail to understand is that it is far better to have 1000 drivers who are generally business men or families on vacation than ONE lead-footed teenage driver.

Also, rental cars are meticulously serviced and checked after every rental. I am a mechanic and I highly recommend rental vehicles over privately owned vehicles.

To 18:36 - Dude, relax and take a deep breath.

The comment says: " Rentals are usually the cheapest version of every model, and they have not all had an easy life.

For what it's worth I've rented many Camrys and have come away pretty impressed."

Notice the word "usually" meaning that NOT all rentals are the cheapest model.

Also see that it says NOT ALL" rentals have had an easy life.

Nowhere is it stated that all rentals are the cheapest models, or that all rentals are abused.

It also states that in this writer's opinion the Camry's were impressive and they WERE rentals.

Let's face it - yes, most rental companies service their rentals regularly, however not all rental cars are treated with kid gloves by those who rent them. Just think of all of the different drivers they have had over their rental lifetime. Also take a look at the fleet of rental cars at a nearby rental office. Do you see scratches and dings on the body? I've seen scratches on the trunk lid, roof, etc. Indicating that some renters throw their luggage, brief cases etc. on top of the car, not worrying about possible damage. I doubt these careless nimrods would do the same thing to their personal cars.

Whenever I rent a car, I treat it with kid gloves, as I don't want to damage someone else's property. (I treat my vehicles the same way). However, I doubt that all rental car customers treat rentals that well.

"Well, it's also the "opinion" of the vast majority of the American public, who have made the Camry the best selling car for almost 10 years. That and the fact that the vast majority of auto publications and consumer guides also gives Toyota and Honda products higher marks in fit and finish, as well as overall reliability."

Well, as 17:40 points out, a majority of the American public are still buying non-Japanese vehicles, and a vast majority of that group are buying American vehicles.

Regarding the Camry somehow making the best seller list, a majority of the American people probably elected a president or two you did not agree with based on what you believe are incorrect notions and misguided opinions of the agenda-driven press. Just because many people are doing something does not make it right.

Take a look at 15:18.

"I don't know how the commenter can draw a conclusion based on rentals though. Rentals are usually the cheapest version of every model, and they have not all had an easy life."

Oops, there goes the arguments from the Toyota fans who rented domestic vehicles and were displeased with them too, that is unless the usual Toyota double standard where any and all Toyota problems no matter how severe are excused, while domestic vehicle are nit picked to death still applies.

To the commenter who said this was a "double standard".

I wish you would read the entire comment - nowhere did I say that Imports were better than domestics.

In fact I said that there are good & bad in every make.

I'm not the one trying to turn this into an import vs. domestic argument.

In fact I'm saying that the argument itself is pointless.

15:18,

Did you look at the Chevy section on the Consumer site you keep bringing up? Well there's close to 150 complaints on the Malibu alone, and just as many for the bulk of their models listed there. In fact, one of the comments on that site was that a user "complained" that he felt like they were being "Unfair" to GM. Or it could just be that lots of people have problems with GM products. Needless to say, while there are cars and trucks from Toyota on that site, Ford and GM have the lion's share of complaints.

In any regard, GM and ford are toast. So you guys are going to have to get used to driving Toyotas and Hondas because they will be the only cars left.

11:34 makes the point perfectly. If the cigarette lighter in my Ford stops working at 400,000 miles, imports fans say it is "crap". If a Honda requires 4 transmissions in 80,000 miles and a Toyota needs 3 engines in 3 years they are still "reliable, better built cars".

I have rented numerous rentals on business trips often doing the luxury car upgrade, and they were not bottom bare bones models. Depending on where you travel, you can also rent sports cars, exotics even Harley Davidson's as well. I have driven former rental vehicles that were bought as company cars such as Crown Vics, Marquis and Lincolns and all were fine.

How about vehicles at dealerships that are not brand new from being demo cars, salemen, mgr cars? I suspect some are wrung out on many road tests.

I believe in a good test drive and maybe I drive each a bit more than the average road test customer. But I also have my checkbook in my back pocket and have my family drive and ride in each as well.

Fit and finish is good, but you need to drive them thoroughly and examine everything. On a full size truck such as on this review; the bed, towing is why you are buying this larger type vehicle. Then driving with best handling, head, shoulder, leg room, performance, power, amenities and then warranty.

It wasn't a Tundra after comparisons, utility and features-benefit observations we made.

15:18 Congratulations! You've succeeding in proving absolutely nothing. What you've done is list a bunch of comments probably made by Ford and GM fans.

I can still use as proof the opinions of every major automotive expert that works for every major automotive magazine I've ever read. Go to the newsstand. Buy any of them. Consumer Reports. JD Power. CNN studies. ALL of them rank Japanese automobiles as the HIGHEST quality. They take all the top spots, year and year. Or I can believe YOU and a bunch of anonymous people with absolutely no qualifications or facts.

"To the commenter who said this was a "double standard".

I wish you would read the entire comment - nowhere did I say that Imports were better than domestics."

Sorry for not being as clear as I should have been. I did read the entire comment and you are correct. I should have specified that I was referring to your comments about rental cars in general, which (I agree with you) are sometimes being mishandled, not that you were jumping into the import vs. domestic debate.

My point is that certain people will use that as a defense against me not liking the Camry's I rented, while completely ignoring that aspect things for the people who disliked the domestics they rented.

I'll be a bit more specific about my experiences renting some of the Domestic cars I rented. I'm a fairly perceptive person, so perhaps some don't notice these things. I rented most recently a Pontiac Grand Am. It was a 2007 model with around 20,000 miles on it. All black leather interior, premium sound system... the whole nine yards.

The good parts first. It got admirable fuel economy. We got around 30MPG freeway, and we were driving pretty fast too. It was also fast. It was also quite. Additionally, it had lots of little whistles and bells like a trunk opener and a little trip computer that showed you various things like tire pressure and estimated miles left you had on the gas remaining.

The bad parts last. The car was uncomfortable. I'm a kind of little guy. I'm around 5 ft 7 or so. The car was like getting in a car when you were 5 years old: HUGE. I could barely see over the dash. Secondly, it was almost impossible not to hit your ankles getting in the thing. There was a nonsensical raised area because the door closure was around 6" above the bottom trim. Secondly, the interior of the car was as I've seen on the majority of American cars for years. It was glazed over with massive amounts of cheap plastic. Not that plastic is bad. All cars have it. But the way it's used in cars like these is more like an afterthought. Big swaths of it laid over vast expanses. The radio itself was made out of the same plastic. It looked super-generic. The gear shift, windshield wiper controls, and so on were also made of cheap plastic. I felt like I could snap the wiper controls. It just had an overall feeling of flimsiness. The letters and markings were already wearing off in places.

The seats were showing serious wear. The edges were starting to crack. During the whole trip, the tire pressure alarm went off frequently. We checked the pressure and the gauge was totally inaccurate.

Since I'm curious about engines, I looked under the hood. The whole engine was covered in a giant sheet of molded plastic. There was a lot of usage of cheap materials. black painted nuts and bolts versus galvanized. Wiring and hoses routed haphazardly all over the place. Additionally, the engine screeched every time we started it. Sometimes for 30 seconds or more.

So my complaint about the bulk of domestic cars and trucks I've driven is that while for the most part, they seem decent, there is an underlying cheapness and obvious signs of bean-counting and corner cutting. Lots of shortcuts being made too. I'm sure that some of these cars will run for just as long as a Toyota. But frankly, I'd rather let someone else be the guinea pig while I keep driving what I know is quality, know has been engineered with no bean counting, and will serve me reliably for years. I am yet to be convinced the Big Three are there yet. When they do, I'll gladly buy one.