2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

20:45.

OK then, applying your logic, I could say all of the complaints about domestic vehicles are from domestic car haters and this whole discussion is pointless?

Your entire argument seems to be that anything negative a person says about Toyota must be untrue, while anything negative a person says about a domestic vehicle is always true. Then, if there is any doubts of this, we can let the press can be the ultimate arbitrator and do our thinking on the matter for us.

I don't know what to say... Trying to reason with that seems pretty hopeless.

Regarding people's "qualifications" to make comments on this site, I think our experience and intuition as people the brains God gave us should be enough.

But if you must know, I also happen to be a practicing Engineer with a masters in Engineering, Graduate Certificate, and additional graduate work very close to a PhD. Among the systems I have personally designed and been involved in the design of have been automotive systems both electrical and mechanical in nature. Before going to school for engineering and working as an Engineer, I was a formally trained ASE certified auto mechanic, with a special concentration on electronics and engine-performance/drivability related concerns. In other words, I am quite up to date on the latest automotive technology and qualitative analysis of the subject, and do not whistle Dixie when I post to this site.

I would be most happy to have a friendly TECHNICAL debate on automotive technology here with you any time you want, if you are so concerned about people's "qualifications" who post to this site.

I think everyone's "qualifications" who post to this site are fine.

I agree that test drives should be very strenuous and push the vehicle to its limits. Otherwise, you have no idea what its capabilities and limitations are. I ALWAYS buy the car I test drove (instead of choosing an identical one off the lot) in spite of having wrung the guts out of it.

As a former car salesman, I can assure you that the salesmen put their demonstrators through ever conceivable form of abuse. Domestic vehicles are built like tanks, and red-lining the engines, slamming on the brakes at speed and wild cornering are not going to do them the slightest bit of harm. Ironically, the ONLY vehicle I ever saw blow up during a test drive was (of all things) a Rolls Royce!!

The scariest test drive I ever had was in a Toyota Highlander. It DID make it back to the dealer's lot, but applying the brakes caused it to lurch wildly to the left, the V-6 was so puny we couldn't merge into traffic without nearly being run over, and pieces of trim were literally falling off the interior. It goes without saying we did NOT buy the Toyota!!

20:45 while you use the words automobiles freely, at what point are you going to begin to analyze full size trucks? I can read magazines as well, but then I take it on the road and test as many full size trucks as possible.

If you truly hate import full size truck's handling or room, comfort or handling, are you expected to forego that and buy anyway? If you have ever owned new full sizes do you compare utility or compare it to a car?

I am sorry but I do not apply car analogies as it's the functionality that concerns me when one wants to go bigger and own new late model full size trucks.

I own different vehicles including a high top conversion van. When I bought the conversion van, I was not thinking a hybrid Prius to base upon my buying decision.

The fact is if you ever go beyond walking around full size trucks, looking at paint and finish and the amount of cupholders, it may at some point address best function and capability. There are far more full size truck offerings available as domestics, and import full size trucks are thin. I found out I like driving domestic full sizes most of all... far better comfort, I like the better handling and especially function. Again this is not a small car, small truck review and if anyone on here were commenting on the Tundra they owned I would be interested in reading. If you own a Tundra, Titan where are you? Beyond maybe 2 people, the rest are either small car, small truck or full size domestic truck owners on here.

"Or I can believe YOU and a bunch of anonymous people with absolutely no qualifications or facts."

Does anyone see the irony in this comment? I'll believe my experience with trouble-free American vehicles before I let this guy tell me tales of magical Japanese cars.

How many people rent a Camry, review car reviews at the newstand and then buy a full size truck? I remember following Consumer Reports in the 70's and seeing the columns of darkened circles indicating import excellence. Then it slowly became satisfactory or worse than before if you are into the circle thing. With less and less dark circles. I learned to always test drive after making mistakes on my special ordered vehicles. You have to get out of the armchair and base decisions on what you like and actually need. On a full size truck review I tow a boat. I also have 4 occupants (family) that look at comfort, head, shoulder room.

My worse mistake was going off a review and special ordering a car with reduced headroom with the sunroof option. None of the cars we walked around had that option to even sit in. My head was right on the ceiling for 4 months and I sold it.

The same with full size trucks. If you are unhappy driving them it is not any value whatsoever. It is the worst feeling hating what you drive over cheapness. Being uncomfortable or lacking key elements you may personally need over resale or looking at panel gaps, cupholders is not how I buy. I want value in the product,outstanding service and warranty or I will not keep buying the same new vehicles again.

On full size trucks, I am asking questions on latest options, safety, cooling, tow packages, suspension, tires but then test the handling, leg, better shoulder room and overall room, even heavily involving my children as they spend a lot of time in my full size truck as well.

Unless you buy a full size truck to solo commute or not need any utility of one. I would probably buy a small truck if I did not have applications for a full size. I would suspect people on here are contemplating the purchase of a new full size or they would not be on here. Anyway we chose another new Silverado. My wife is 100% off new import sedans; had been buying new ones every 2-3 years since the 70's. She's very pleased with her newest GM SUV.

20:37 As expected, you miss the point again. I'm not expecting you to believe me. My argument isn't built on MY opinions, it's built on the opinions of automotive experts working for every major auto magazine on the newstand that ALL rate Japanese cars and trucks the HIGHEST in quality and reliability - because they ARE.

Your argument doesn't work at all, and it's factually void. AGAIN -- are you really expecting people to believe YOUR unfounded opinions, or the millions of people who've made Japanese cars the best selling in the country BECAUSE they're the best, AND are clearly rated as such??

12:52 Your college degree does not guarantee your intelligence or anyone else's. I'm very close to a post grad degree also... who cares.

To answer your question (of sorts)...NO, I do not think that ALL people who make negative comments about Toyota's are lying. They are machines, they break down. HOWEVER.. they ARE (in fact), much BETTER machines/automobiles than Chevy, Ford, Dodge, or anyone else makes. With the possible exception of Honda, their only real competitor regarding quality.

It is much easier to believe claims of high mileage Toyota's and Honda's because IT'S THE TRUTH, due to their better build quality and engine design. Any mechanical engineer worth a nickel would be able to explain how a Honda or Toyota engine is superior in design to a GM engine.

With the economy the way it is, with less and less people in existing companies, the last thing I want to do is to miss work with very high mileage cars or trucks.

I use to buy some bargains thinking no car payment and take a chance with imports. But import repairs are very expensive, and some of the following such as modules, timing belts, water pumps, head gaskets, heater cores can go at any minute. Even thinking you replace everything in time does not always work. I have seen 2 coworkers late with an older Camry and an old mini Toyota pickup that were late more than a few times and written up.

The logic of having 2 heaps in the driveway and hope one starts in the morning is not for me. Another co-worker wasted his money on a Civic adding shaved keyless door handles, a supercharger, and costly rims instead of owning a new reliable vehicle and got written up as well over unreliable transportation.

I suspect most on here do not chance that unless they are retired and have all day to sit in the shop and miss work. I have used a free loaner car with basic service schedule, no real issue with my new domestic and the free shuttle to and from work.

Employers notice who's working the moment they come in. It's hard to also catch a bus when your car is sitting on the shoulder of the interstate. Look at consumeraffairs.com to get an idea.

23:25 I would value an expert opinion from an ASE certified mechanic with additional formal training in engineering and a strong automotive backgound in areas such as engine performance and drivability.

As another commenter, I have background in DC Electric Tooling/Torque Tubes/Air and Mechanical zero gravity Balancers widely used in automotive assembly plants and have worked closely with tool engineers myself. I also have purchased at least 30 new vehicles and formulate my opinion on past performance and reliability. I see Honda and Toyota mechanically as just average and see GM as my preference.

The import commenter continues to feel that a negative import comment comes from individuals lacking expertise in the automotive realm. Far from true. I am seeing highly detailed arguments to the contrary from domestic ownership vs. vague generalized comments. As I respect everyone's opinion, I will not even question this individuals educational background. Each person can track many new vehicles purchased first hand and formulate their best personal decision what to purchase.

Does the import commenter own a new full size truck as some of us that own them do at least? At least it has some pertinence on a full size truck review that you can share first hand knowledge that all can analyze and base a decision upon.

"Any mechanical engineer worth a nickel would be able to explain how a Honda or Toyota engine is superior in design to a GM engine."

OK, I guess I am not worth a nickel, because I do not agree with you.

And I thought not being "qualified" to make comments on this site was bad enough...

Again, you are just speculating, but providing no facts. If you have any knowledge of the subject, why don't YOU explain it instead of ASSUMING what others think?

For example, explain why so many Toyota engines are developing sludge and seizing due to improper thermodynamic design. Specifically, explain why measured data indicates temperature differentials between the head (s) and block in Toyota engines as high as 60-70, while the accepted industry design standard is between 10-15 degrees. It is known that high temperature differentials such as those in Toyota engines are known to cause sludge. If they followed proper design procedure, the problem could have been avoided.

Do you honestly still think all the accounts of Toyota engine failures on Consumer Affairs and the PARTIAL list of examples below on CarSurvey are made up?

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_6536.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_22516.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_21861.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_82050.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_85237.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_23139.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_23244.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_10591.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_25332.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_40999.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_33044.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_28023.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_15901.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_33248.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_73957.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_41126.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_70471.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_26098.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_37987.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_38217.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_67466.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_28054.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_107525.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_85094.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_21502.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_48643.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_49621.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_97335.html

I have just provided you with a specific design defect that has likely contributed to the many Toyota engine failures that have been occurring recently. I am still waiting for you to provide some specific facts on why Toyota engines are superior, not subjective media articles and pompous assertions that "everybody knows" (paraphrasing) your opinion is true.

I know all domestics are not perfect and I could site you examples of domestic models with serious design flaws too. But, Toyota is no way the standard bearer for quality over domestics; they are quite the opposite in actuality. The percentage of Toyota's having SERIOUS problems (e.g., ENGINE FAILURES) far exceeds the percentage of domestics having similar problems. The only thing truly remarkable about Toyota, notwithstanding their major quality problems, is the cult following they have in light of these problems.

"Any mechanical engineer worth a nickel would be able to explain how a Honda or Toyota engine is superior in design to a GM engine."

Really? I'm a mechanic with over 40 years of experience. I can assure you that there are basically NO differences between modern domestic engine designs and new Japanese engine designs except for the defects in Japanese engines that are so clearly detailed in comment 12:30.

Here again, we have to look at new models, not dwell on a minor problem someone had with a 20-year-old domestic with 200,000 miles on it. All modern engine designs are very similar. Any mechanical engineer worth a nickel will agree. All modern engines are basically the same, except that in some cases domestics (such as the one I drive) have more expensive, sturdy chains (or gears in some cases) driving the overhead cams instead of flimsy rubber belts such as those used by Toyota that break every 50,000 miles and require expensive repairs.

I spent all day Sunday at the SF international auto show. It's good to go to things like these because you can carefully look at and even sit in all the cars from all the manufacturers. I've never done this before, but it gave me a Birdseye view as to why the Big 3 are doing so badly. People arguing here should do the same. Here's what I observed:

I looked at the GM, Ford, and Chrysler brands. All-in-all, the quality, fit and finish, and design seemed fairly solid. I was able to spend a lot of time sitting inside the interiors, looking under the hood, and basically looking each and every car over very carefully. But what was interesting is that there were not many people at any of these manufacturers. There were a few - and most of these were older guys, looking at the New Mustang, Challenger, and Corvettes.

The situation was totally different at the Honda, Acura, Lexus, Audi, and VW sections. These places were overflowing with people. I had a hard time getting close to the cars in these sections. What was very clear was that these brands were much more appealing for some reason to younger adults and families.

After looking at all of the brands, what I can tell you from observation that the Big Three aren't getting and what many of the other brands get is that being 'good' simply isn't good enough anymore. While the interior and design of almost all of the Big three's cars and trucks were all-in-all good, with the one exception of the upper end Cadillacs, which were a step above, there was nothing that really stood out in the cars as being memorable. They were just that - plain and uninspiring. The other car makers took it just a few steps further with attention paid to small details like the interior materials, lighting, and gadgets. A GM car might have had a nice looking interior, but there were lots of places where corners had been cut. There wasn't a lot of texture or tactile qualities to their layouts. It was just there to hold door handles, switches, and so forth. But in brands like Honda, Infiniti, and Audi, there was careful attention paid to tactile touches.

The Big Three simply must come up with cars that are a step ahead of the others. As it is now, they just made so-so, uninspiring, uninteresting cars. If what I saw with the level of interest at this car show is any indicator, then the Big three need to pay attention.

While we are on the topic add transmission issues, undersized brakes and remove the tailgate on Tundras. I have yet to see one comment from the import fanatic about consumeraffairs.com. Not one. They will jump over to a domestic comment immediately. If you claim perfection than address Tundras engine, trans and undersized brakes. Better yet look at todays comments on other Tundra owners brake rotor issues... Has your Tundra been immune to all of these issues?

14:18 That's exactly what separates Toyota, Honda... even Hyundai now from the domestics. Attention to detail and quality without cutting corners. From the engine design and build right down to the door handles.

I can't imagine what anyone would find "interesting" at a car show about basic transportation appliances. They all look alike and offer nothing new or exciting.