2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

12:59 More stories about domestics with no repairs and high miles. Why am I not surprised to read this? Because none of it can be proven.

For instance, the Ford Explorer is a piece of junk, any year, as are most Fords. Yet you claim it needed no repairs. I simply do not believe everything I read especially when it comes from domestic fans ranting about their vehicles on a Toyota thread, and with no way of proving a single word of it.

Your opinions aside, go back and read what I wrote; what CAN be proven, and has been documented: Toyota and Honda vehicles make far less trips to the garage than domestics. Period. I could easily type in a list of Toyota's I've owned that I haven't needed a penny in repairs. And that list would be accurate and true. But I still can't prove it to you. The difference is, research, reality, and fact back up my claims. My Toyota's never DID need repairs, and if you expect me to believe that a Ford Explorer didn't... well, it's not going to happen.

I could say that my Tercel had 450,000 miles on it and never needed a repair, just like you claim of all those domestics. And it wouldn't be true. However, I can claim, and it IS true, that I've owned three consecutive Toyota's that I abused badly, and never put a dime in repairs into any of them.

Another truth would be that the five domestics I've owned weren't even close in quality to the Toyota's and broke down regularly; the Ford Ranger I owned was the most miserable piece of garbage I ever wasted money on. Never again.

Imports every single time, because they're built better, last longer, are cheaper to own and drive, and are worth more on trade in; Toyota's and Honda's specifically. Ford, GM, and Dodge cannot compete with Toyota or Honda in build quality, design, reliability, or low cost of ownership.

10:50.

You are concerned about misaligned fuel fill covers. Aside from your free hot dogs, it sounds to me like you had your mind made up that you were going to find problems with the Chevy trucks before you ever stepped foot on the lot.

Fit and finish issues can be highly subjective.

Give me ANY vehicle, including a brand/model vehicle I like, and I guarantee I can find a fit and finish problem. Finding a single problem such as the one you mentioned proves nothing.

The real question is, what is more important, a slightly misaligned fuel fill cover, or a vehicles body/structural integrity as a whole? You are concerned about fuel fill doors being lined up to aerospace tolerances. How concerned then are you about documented accounts of Tundra bodies flexing so severely just from driving down the road that body panels and tailgates are bending out of shape? How concerned are you about Tundra tailgates failing just from having loads of little as two hundred pounds placed on them or flying off the "trucks" while being driven down the road opened?

Take a look at some of the petitions being circulated on the web for Toyota to address this problem. Are all these people imagining these things?

Take a look at these pictures on the following sight:

http://www.bodyshopzone.com/editorial/about_Toyota/Tundra_quality_problem.html

These are devastating problems, far beyond a misaligned panel. This is in addition to all of the devastating Toyota engine problems that are also being reported:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html

Whether Toyota fans like it or not, the severity of Toyota's problems beyond other manufacturers is unprecedented and undeniable. If the automotive press was the slightest bit objective (instead of in the tank for Toyota), they would be seriously questioning whether Toyota's were even suitable for continued sale to the American public.

"Fit and finish issues can be highly subjective."

Oh- So I guess it's perfectly acceptable for a supposedly superior Chevy to have body and interior panels that don't fit flush nor align. I also suppose it's acceptable that their frames and frame hardware already show rust on the showroom floor, or that the sound dampening materials under the hood is clearly visible and fraying at the edges. Or that the weld splatters show bits of welding wire sticking out. Yes indeed - a fine example of quality American engineering.

Yet I know that if some of you pro- GM and Ford guys saw a Toyota with even a tiny scratch on it, you'd be all over that thing, pointing to all of us just how bad they are.

That this argument just keeps going on and on, and on just comes to prove that perhaps GM and Ford might actually survive since there's apparently still enough people out there who don't actually concern themselves with quality and still cling to their numbing patriotism. Good for them. You guys can buy all those clunky trucks. We who learned the truth long ago will keep on buying our "foreign" cars.

I agree with 12:59. My Explorer has never needed a repair. I document all my service intervals in Excel, and keep track of receipts on all my vehicles in Excel. I have the records to prove that my domestics are reliable and inexpensive to operate. If you don't believe it, it's not hurting me any.

Those of us who recognize how good American cars are have to remember to not get upset by the 15-year-old import-owner's vitriolic attacks. There is no real use arguing with the guy. He's made up his mind, and will not be convinced otherwise despite the mountain of personal testimonials and the evidence of Consumer Reports and JD Powers. Anybody who can so easily dismiss every owner's statement about reliability as "no proof", "could have made it up", etc., is not having a rational discussion. It's just another example of the online game where people make outrageous statements to see if they can get a rise out of people and then laugh about it. If the guy is determined to shun American cars, he's only hurting himself.

In reply to:

"I've looked at new domestics. Still junk. Period. Not even worth the test drive. They don't have a lower cost of ownership, because it is a fact that they break down more

Anyone who won't sit in a new domestic has no factual basis whatsoever to condemn them. A close look at ANY domestic and ANY import (even German) from the outside won't show any appreciable differences. If you haven't even SAT in a domestic, refrain from passing meaningless judgments. Any time we buy a car we not only SIT IN, but actually DRIVE both domestics and imports. We base our judgments on verifiable FACTS and DRIVING EXPERIENCE, not bad experience with a 20-year-old domestic with 200,000 miles. We drive the cars, compare fit and finish, feel, interior layout and quality, price and length of warranty, then we choose. We always choose domestics because they win out in our experience over any import in most, if not all categories.

Domestics most definitely DO have a lower cost of ownership. Not only is that clearly shown in many comparisons, but in real-world experience. The repair costs of 7 of our domestics are as follows:

1) 1990 Dodge (241,000 miles) $ 550.00.

2) 1993 Ford Ranger $.00.

3) 1996 Ford Mustang: $.00.

4) 1998 Ford Explorer: $.00.

5) 2001 Dodge Dakota: $.00.

6) 2001 Pontiac (still owned, 72,000 miles) : $27.00.

7) 2003 GMC (still owned, 65,000 miles) : $.00.

That TOTALS $ 577.00 for SEVEN VEHICLES over a span of 18 YEARS, one of which had over 240,000 miles on it."

Sorry I do not believe number 6 (2001 Pontiac) if it's the V6, which is known to have intake gasket and dexcool issues. I have the 2000 Malibu V6, and every V6 engine that was made from 1998-2004 has had some problem with dexcool.

Now on topic. My domestic S10 1999 4x4 was a "failure", so was my 2000 malibu. The issue here is not that you can prove your car is reliable or not, it's about perception. It is perceived by many (due to past experience) that domestics are not reliable. Doesn't matter if they are or if they are not quality.

My family has driven GM for decades and my last truck was the S10. My new one is a 2003 Nissan Frontier. I looked before at everything before getting it.

Dodge - Bad on gas and unreliable

Ranger - Outdated and ugly no crewcab

Canyon - 5cyl (what were they thinking), no long bed CC

Toyota - Had everything but too expensive

Frontier - Style, CC, longbox, proven engine, a ton of options, LSD, premium stereo.

Tundra would be my choice for full size.

22:35 how about indicating specific model years you owned and what new full size trucks you have specifically tested. I am taking a guess, but I suspect small tiny Tacoma on a full size truck review. Correct me if I am wrong... was your Explorer comment pertaining to full size truck ownership?

As far as fit and finish goes... I do my best to avoid scratches on my full size truck. I look at engines, transmissions, gear ratios, heavy duty cooling, towing capacities and load ratings.

As far as bouncing and clogging along, I will take a full size long wheel base GM ride anyday over a short hoppy Tacoma, especially elevated.

I suspect you will never own a new full size truck, just an old Tacoma, and the comments way way back on most likely used abused domestics. What year were all these vehicles? Be specific, it is now 2009... I would like to discuss my findings too. Not just sit, never own, never buy a new one and then complain.

I seem to manage with less cup holders, do have a minute scratch in the rear quarter caused by my belt onloading gear at a boat ramp. I think I'll live as long as it can pull up the ramps and drive 2 hours home in intense heat and bumper to bumper traffic.

If I had a Toyota, I would be installing a straw holder with my cup holders instead of ever dwelling on utility and full size truck function and purpose. Buy a full size someday and tell us what why and what you bought one for. Maybe you will have a more realistic ownership view.

"I also suppose it's acceptable that their frames and frame hardware already show rust on the showroom floor."

I admire your diligence, but once again, you (a typical Toyota fan) are trying to excuse the inexcusable.

Firstly, I have never seen any of the problems with domestics you are talking about and was not making any concessions that I had in my statements. But you completely ignored what I said and take a whole different meaning from it in an attempt to support your misguided convictions. Yet you have not refuted a single fact that anyone presented, nor presented any of your own. You just use the typical Toyota argument (paraphrasing) "Toyota's are better because I say so, everybody knows it."

Secondly, how can you even bring up rust issues? Toyotas and other Asian cars are well known from being made from inferior metals of insufficient thickness. You have not addressed how it can possibly be acceptable (to a Toyota fan) for the Tundra to be constructed so flimsily that it bends itself out of shape just from driving down the road. As much as you might want to ignore it, this is a fact.

Have you heard about all the Toyota Tacoma frames snapping in half? It is all over the Internet. Is this how you define quality? Will you admit that any of these are serious problems that are unique to Toyota and not found in domestic vehicles?

Why don't you address some of these issues and all of the Toyota engine failure issues on Consumer Affairs? How about giving it another try and answering with a substantive argument this time?

To summarize, the points not yet addressed are:

1) Tundras bending out of shape from driving down the road

2) Tacoma frames snapping in half

3) The Toyota engine failure epidemic on Consumer Affairs.

If I were in the mood to laugh, I would. To compare a Ford Exploder (yes, Exploder) to ANY Toyota is laughable. I suppose the S-10 does better than a Tacoma off-road? I guess a Cavalier or an Escort is as good of a car as a Corolla?? I'll bet a Dodge Neon has as good of an engine as a Civic too... you guys are a riot.

"I simply do not believe everything I read especially when it comes from domestic fans ranting about their vehicles on a Toyota thread, and with no way of proving a single word of it."

OK, then check out the October 2007 issue of Consumer Reports article on high-mileage vehicles. The champ is a Ford Ranger with 488,000 miles and no problems. I suppose you think they made that up too??

18:20 the mood I am in is about the topic of the review full size trucks... it deviates for some reason to Toyota Tacoma, Corolla and Civics what on earth for? They are not even the subject of this review, and I am waiting to see if you will ever comment on foreign steel, thin sheet metal, engine sludging failures and transmission issues, undersized brakes, faulty air bags on Toyota models...

But small sedans and small pickups are not the topic anyway. I did not like the ride on the Toyota Tundra, however I love the handling and performance of the Dodge Viper. If a potential full size truck prospect can benefit from my off topic comparison I feel domestics are far superior. The Viper is the best car I have ever driven... makes about as much sense as talking about a Civic or Corolla on a full size truck review. Hope my info helps.

The Ford Explorer has from day one been the best selling SUV in America. We've owned 3. Never a single problem.

And YES, the Cavalier and Escort ARE better than the Corolla. The only car I've ever had break down on the road with us was a Corolla (TWICE). Our Escort never once had a single problem, nor did our Focus, or any of our other Fords. I've rode in a friend's Cavalier that had over 170,000 miles with no problems. My friend's Neon just turned 100,000 with absolutely nothing but routine servicing. I don't know of anyone who has ever driven a Corolla 100,000 miles without some fairly serious mechanical issues.

As for the Subject of this review, the Tundra, the first generation models were no match for any full size domestic truck by any wild stretch of the imagination. The newer models are a step up in size, but a step backward in build quality and reliability. I think this is why I'm seeing so many new F-150's and Silverados and virtually NO new Tundras. Ford and Chevy sales are off by less than Toyota and Honda, and in our area there is a "Buy from Americans" movement to encourage more people to support American industry. I expect this movement to catch on, as more people see the need to help our economy by buying American.

21:17 Wow. ONE Ford truck that gets the kind of mileage that every old Corolla, Civic, Tercel, or Toyota truck with a 22re engine is capable of getting. I can see why a Ford doing that would make headlines though. Because it's about as rare as seeing a unicorn. Read the Honda CRX reviews. Many of these cars have 3 or 400,000 miles and are still going. I've seen it personally. You should talk to a good friend of mine who is a long-time (certified) Honda mechanic. That is newsworthy for a Honda or Toyota, but it's miraculous for a Ford.

Wow wants to make you sell your full size truck and ride in a CRX. I could pay someone (a transporter) to tow for me 4 plus hours every weekend and ride in my CRX in style. Can I at least drive the Viper and you tow for me? The relevance again escapes one on a full size truck review.

I go in and test and buy a new truck. Can I test drive a car first and then write my check? I buy a full size based on utility and performance, ride, handling, towing and load capability as well as best function and warranty. Hope others might follow this example it works and quite effectively.

The 22RE is not made anymore. It was discontinued in 1995 due (presumably) to new emissions regulations in 1996. Aside from its propensity for head gasket failures, the 22RE was a durable engine, not the least of reasons for which was it having a cast iron block (oh how I miss cast iron blocks!!), with a no frills tried and true basic design, which I do not say as a criticism. I am no Toyota fan, but have seen that engine in action and will admit it was a great engine.

However, the period of time 22RE's were made (pre OBDII) was a different era for the automotive industry, and especially Toyota. By contrast to the 22RE's of Toyota's hey days, the new Toyota engines of 1996 and beyond have a horrible track record, e.g.:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html

How many late model Toyota engines have you heard of holding up for high mileages like the the 22RE? Everyone I know that has a late model Toyota has had major problems with them, in many instances requiring engine replacements. Sorry if some people do not want to hear that, but it is simply reality. Things change and not always for the better. I will say however, that I have always had excellent luck with all my domestics.