2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

7:44... gas mileage applies to the small car mentality that apparently still runs rampant on a full size truck review. If you are buying a brand new full size pickup... it's due to strength, bed load capability, towing characteristics. You are looking for trans coolers, tow packages, frame construction.

I have one of our vehicles with a 37 gallon tank. You know when you buy they use fuel, and if it's an issue, buy small or not at all. If you do buy, it is usually for an application, not a useless vehicle.

I tow and a small car is not ever going to work. I would rather have strength even if I do not fully load and go into a vehicles duty cycle on its drivetrain. Gas is so secondary as to why you buy a full size truck to start with. If you carry a 50- 100 lb shrub or a bicycle in the back, maybe a small or light duty work truck... or even a hatchback car (with a tiedown rope) that gets higher MPG would be ideal for such a person.

"OK, then check out the October 2007 issue of Consumer Reports article on high-mileage vehicles. The champ is a Ford Ranger with 488,000 miles and no problems. I suppose you think they made that up too"??

FYI: The Ranger is a rebadged Mazda. Mazda is not owned by Ford but Ford has had a controlling interest (30%) for years. So the Ranger isn't the most apt example. However Ford is a fine company in their own right. According to Consumer Reports Fords are, on average, the most reliable of American makes. They are the most financially stable. They are in the upper echelon of manufacturers (quality-wise) worldwide. They have been more proactive about making changes to remain competitive.

All of this to say that if someone wants to pick on American auto manufacturers, Ford is the least likely choice. I've driven mostly Hondas and Toyotas for as long as I've been licensed to drive, but there seems to be rumblings of a shift. I like the sounds of some of the changes that traditionally American manufacturers are making. It took a walk on the edge to get them there, but they may come out of this as smaller but scrappier and more aggressive companies. Best of luck to them all. My next vehicle may well be from "the big three".

Every Tundra owner I know (which is a total of three, they aren't very popular here) has had lots of problems well before 60,000 miles. The early models are especially prone to problems, and the new ones don't seem to fair any better except for the more competitive size.

I just heard that Toyota is planning to discontinue building the Tundra (and I can see why) so I guess this entire discussion will soon become pretty much irrelevant.

09:29.

Glad to see you are keeping an open mind about things.

One thing though, the Ford Ranger is not a rebadged Mazda, but the Mazda 'B' series is 100% a rebadged Ford Ranger, complete with Ford engines. The manual transmissions on both, however, are Mazda.

They are great trucks. I have had a couple. My brother has one with over 420,000 miles on the original engine and transmission that he has never had any trouble with.

Ironically, the first small truck Ford sold WAS a re-badged Mazda (it was called the Courier and was sold in the 70's). Since 1993 the Mazda trucks basically ARE Ford Rangers. They are 100% Ranger mechanically, with only minor changes to the body. Family members have owned both the old Mazda truck and the re-badged Rangers. There is no comparison. The Rangers are more plush, ride better and are rock-solid reliable. 400,000 miles out of a Ranger is fairly common if they are well cared for.

9:29 Yes, Fords are the most reliable of the American makes, which gives them the honor of being the best of the worst in quality.

Yes, they are also the most financially stable out of three companies that are nearly going under. If Ford wasn't in financial trouble, their CEO would not have been sitting in front of that congressional committee kissing up and answering "yes" to every question the Congressman grilled them with. Anybody who watched that hearing knows that.

My next vehicle will be a Toyota, Honda, or Hyundai, just like the last 4 of them since I discovered how much more reliable they are than domestics.

Are there exceptions to the rule? Yes. Everybody makes lemons. It's just that the Big 3 make SO many and Toyota and Honda make so few that the obvious choice is an import. Especially when it comes to cars.

Nobody make s a better truck than Toyota. Some companies make larger ones with more towing capacity, but NOBODY makes a more reliable, higher quality, tougher truck than Toyota. I've said this before, but the true test of a truck isn't on the pavement. It's off road where they take a real beating. Towing a load on smooth pavement can't match the abuse a truck takes when it's being twisted, bounced, and over-revved off road. And anyone with any off road experience knows that Toyota can't be touched.

"One thing though, the Ford Ranger is not a rebadged Mazda, but the Mazda 'B' series is 100% a rebadged Ford Ranger, complete with Ford engines. The manual transmissions on both, however, are Mazda".

Oops, sorry about the misinformation. Thanks for setting me straight. 400,000+ on ANY vehicle is impressive. This is me... eating crow :)

09:43 Well, I guess Toyota discontinuing the Tundra would be better than the Big 3 discontinuing their existence due to poor products and lost sales, which will likely happen. The only Toyota's I, and everyone I know that owns them, that have problems before 60,000 miles (or 160,000) are the ones spoken of online by domestic owners who can't stand the fact that a foreign company makes way better cars and trucks than the Big 3 do or ever did.

"I just heard that Toyota is planning to discontinue building the Tundra (and I can see why) so I guess this entire discussion will soon become pretty much irrelevant".

Where did you hear that? I ran a couple of searches to no avail. I saw that Toyota is planning a heavy duty Tundra. Are you sure that's not the one getting discontinued? There was also a supercharged version making over 500hp. Maybe that's the one?

400,000 miles is common for a Ranger? Maybe you should have come over and talked to the Ranger I had (thankfully long gone) that broke down twice a week between 70,000 and 140,000; which I poured several hundreds of dollars into to make it get to that point.

The Ford Ranger was the single worst vehicle I've owned yet. I'd have been financially further ahead to have bought it and then pushed it off a cliff. Would have saved me a lot of swearing and money, and walking half way home from somewhere a few times. Never had a Toyota leave me stranded, not even during serious off-roading. All I wanted from the Ranger was a ride to work on the road, and that was apparently too much to ask from Ford.

Tundra sales have plummeted (they were never very good) and Toyota is planning to delay opening its new plant in Mississippi indefinitely due to virtually no interest in the Tundra and a 50% drop in sales of the problem-plagued Prius. It's possible that Tundra production might be resumed if the economy improved and they could somehow improve the bad reputation the Tundra has earned with massive initial problems. Everyone I know who has traded a Tundra traded it for a Ford or Chevy due to poor satisfaction and problems with the early Tundras.

Basically, this argument will never-ever end. But I'll summarize what I've been reading on these reviews from all the die hard domestic fans:

1: " American cars are better. I know because my Grandpappy owned three and NONE had any problems" (Good, I know everyone in my family, plus all my friends and co-workers who own Toyotas seldom if ever have problem either.)

2: "I HATE foreign cars. They are ALL bad. But I LOVE the Chevy Aveo, Ford Fusion which is top-notch, Ford Escort, Ford Ranger, and Pontiac GTOS." (ironic since these are all actually partly or entirely foreign-made)

3: " I admit that Toyotas and Hondas WERE good back in the 80's, but you Toyota fans don't have a legitimate argument because none of the NEW Toyotas are good." (funny since of the three newer Toyota in our family, NONE have had any problems.

4: " Toyotas are BAD because I can prove it with a few reviews of sludging engines and the total of 20 faulty camshafts in the Tundra engine." (Of course they totally ignore the fact that GM alone has had more recalls and problems than all three of the biggest Japanese automakers combined, and probably just from one or two models.)

5: " The Tundra isn't a REAL man's truck. I know because I don't see any of them here in Kentucky" (Yup. Not in KY, but come out to California - only the most populated state in the US and you'll find PLENTY of them.)

6: " I buy American because it helps American companies." (yes, and up until recently, that money helped CEOs from Ford and GM fly in private jets.

7: "American cars are now better because this report says they're better in initial quality" (I could care less since I'm more concerned about long-term reliability)

I could go on and on. Let me know if I missed any.

"Nobody make s a better truck than Toyota. Some companies make larger ones with more towing capacity, but NOBODY makes a more reliable, higher quality, tougher truck than Toyota. I've said this before, but the true test of a truck isn't on the pavement. It's off road where they take a real beating. Towing a load on smooth pavement can't match the abuse a truck takes when it's being twisted, bounced, and over-revved off road. And anyone with any off road experience knows that Toyota can't be touched".

Since you are responding to my comment, I'll fill you in a little bit about the perspective from which I come. My last truck was a 2000 Toyota Tundra, which was rated above average by Consumer Reports when I bought it used in 2002. It was a very good vehicle. Not stiff enough for towing heavy loads, but a very fine off-roader. I took it 4WDing a number of times; Once by Ouray, CO. It was very good off-road for a truck because of its high clearance and comparatively short length. The only negative was that it suffered from axle hop in mud or snow. At that time, though, Consumer Reports also rated the F150 above average which provided me with a viable alternative in a slightly heavier-duty truck. I chose the Tundra partly because of Toyota's reputation for reliability and wasn't disappointed. It was a very close cousin to perfect until I sold it in 08.

I'm just becoming more encouraged by signs of improvement from Detroit. The mere fact that I think that the average reliability of past Toyota products (average of all products) has been better than their American counterparts' doesn't make me hope for the demise of an industry that underpins American manufacturing. So when I see signs of improvement at Ford and elsewhere, I'm perfectly willing to cheer them on and even plunk my money down when the time comes.

One point: I think the data suggests that Ford has risen to better than merely the worst of a bad lot. The last Consumer Reports said that Ford now has an "average" corporate rating when all their models are included in the sample. That's not bad and I hope to see continued improvement for the sake of all the folks who rely upon them for a job or a vehicle. Cheers.

10:28;

Now take all of that and apply it to pro-foreign commenters, and you'll have about covered it all.

10:28 First of all you were off regarding the profession. Whatever labeling you are making an effort to prove, is not indicative of full size truck ownership. If I talk about Chevrolets and I have owned some pretty nice ones including Corvettes. I would have no problem going to Bowling Green, Ky. to pick up my new order.

I firmly believe anyone buying a new 2009, not languishing in an old vehicle that makes them the absolute authority... should test drive every single comparable model in their category and buy in a set price range. Walking into any showroom and saying "give me another only bigger" may be fine is you own a small Toyota now. If that works for you fine.

Ignoring or side-stepping serious mechanical concerns on late models both on here and consumeraffairs.com is foolhardy.

Love what you own and that's great.

I test them all and have a list of criteria on full size trucks. I would like to know what others are buying their full size trucks on here at the moment. If you are walking into a showroom what's the agenda?

Applying small car, small truck analogies on a full size truck review has zero applications. My truck and 2 cars are garage kept, not parked out by the outhouse as you insinuate domestic owners might.

I dwell on features and benefits and testing all before you buy... not hoping to persuade anyone to buy by insult or any other desperate measures. People are not forced and are usually taking more time to test, compare and become more and more educated on new models, not on something old that someone has kept and has no new basis of comparison to reflect upon.