2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

10:28 You didn't miss many. And thanks for the laugh. So true. They'll go on and ON about the camshaft in the Tundra, which was only a very small number and remedied a long time ago, but they choose to ignore the mountain of recalls that the Big 3 have always had, which are of course much more frequent, almost always handled improperly, and usually far more serious and negligent. Ha. But... as long as they can find ONE issue that Toyota has had... they must be bad. Too funny. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

You have to love that backwoods logic too... Ford trucks must be better because they can haul more. Wow. Dump trucks must be the most reliable vehicles on the road because they can haul a LOT! It makes sense right? Ford and Chevy make cheaper cars, have tons of recalls on them, and are consistently rated worse than Japanese cars, yet are SOMEhow better. Cheaper and better. Right. Duh. If they REALLY were less expensive AND better then Toyota and Honda would never have gotten off the ground in the U.S.

The fact is, people pay a little more for a far better automobile when they buy Toyota, Honda, or Nissan. If you don't want to pay the price; you get a piece of crap Ford or Chevy. But, according the Big 3 fans on this site, they all get 600,000 miles and you don't even have to change the oil. Right.

You want a junk car? Buy a Chevy. Want a good one? Buy a Toyota.

First off, statistics don't lie. Our personal experience (not some mythical "friend's") is as follows:

1) 30+ domestics owned in over 30 years. None ever had a single engine or transmission replaced, or any major repairs of any kind. We own 3 to 4 cars at a time and some of these vehicles were kept for nearly 20 years. Several made over 200,000 miles, and one (a Ford) made over 300,000 miles. We also owned 3 imports during the 80's and 90's (when they were SUPPOSED to be "good"). Only 1 made 100,000 miles, and all of them were far less reliable than ANY of our domestics. Do the statistical probability of getting 30 GOOD vehicles from a supposedly BAD manufacturer, and 3 BAD vehicles from supposedly GOOD manufacturers.

2) I don't "hate" foreign cars. I just have far better things to do with my money than spend it on cars with high degrees of problems and very short warranties. I also don't care for sitting around a dealership all day waiting for repairs when I can spend my time more productively.

3) ALL of our 80's and 90's imports were less than stellar in reliability and VERY EXPENSIVE in repairs. I don't think they were any better in the "good old days".

4) It's hilarious how the number of defective Toyota engines has "magically" dwindled from THOUSANDS to TWENTY!!

That Toyota "engine fairy" must be at it again!!!

5) The Tundra ISN'T a real truck. How many heavy construction jobs do you see using the puny and unreliable Tundra?? We own two companies. There is not a Tundra in either fleet. Longer warranties and better service are essential to any company's bottom line. We can't have vehicles constantly out for repairs. That's why ours are all Ford, Chevy or Dodge.

6) Japanese auto executives fly in private jets too. I have yet to read of one of them driving to a meeting in a Corolla. And buying from American companies DOES help the American economy. Study your basic economics 101.

7) Domestic vehicles ARE rated higher than many imports. Fusion DOES outrank Camry and Accord, just as most domestics outrank most Mercedes. And considering that two of our current vehicles are rated "much worse than average" and NEITHER has given us a single problem other than a burned out light bulb in 65,000 miles and 75,000 miles respectively I'm not overly concerned about Japanese-biased ratings at this point. When a DOMESTIC gets a decent rating in biased media, it HAS to be REALLY GOOD.

Better in "initial quality" means best right out of the shoot. I would suspect that means imports steadily decline thereafter. I know my latest Japanese imports fell apart prematurely... if you want to drop 3-4 grand a pop on major mechanical issues on a weak warranty car/truck fine.

I respect my grandparents and parents advice as well. My family has owned many collectible cars over the years, are computer and internet savvy and expect outstanding dealer service to this day. Only a fool would buy without testing thoroughly and comparing all. My grandfather (not grandpappy) reminds me a great deal of Carroll Shelby. Implying family of being ignorant with mechanical knowledge attained over many years is far from accurate. If you are buying a new full size truck and also own 1 or 2 other new cars, as well you are typically not poverty stricken or illiterate.

I have equipped my truck with loads of amenities, yet it is quite low key non flash on the exterior. I go from car, SUV, truck without any labeling

career path or socio economic status. It's a useful practical addition to own.

11:51 I don't want to see the demise of the Big 3 either. I truly hope they continue to improve and actually offer Toyota and Honda some competition. Not likely though. Toyota and Honda have decades of brilliant engine design under their belts and each of the Big 3 may just be beginning to realize the fact that they need to make something comparable to those imports. It'll take a lot longer to actually do it. Toyota and Honda have specialized in making the most efficient, reliable vehicles anywhere, and are rated as the highest in both categories. Overall. No, I don't need to hear about the Ford Fusion's "initial quality" ratings all over again. That's one car, and it's no match for the imports' proven track record of long term reliability; something that the Big 3 haven't lived up to.

I just have a problem with the logic of the domestic fans: how they justify their opinions such as "Ford is good" and "Toyota is bad" makes absolutely no sense. You can't single out ONE car like the Fusion and pretend it makes all Ford's decent. And you can't point to one single problem that Toyota has had and condemn the whole line.

The fact that these domestic owners like to skirt around is that Toyota, Honda, and Japanese automobiles in general have been wiping the floor with the Big 3 for a couple decades, consistently, when it comes to quality and reliability ratings. That's a fact. If some Ford owner out there doesn't agree with it; too bad. Still fact.

It's also fact that domestics make more return trips the garage. Also fact; proven by surveys conducted on original owners of 3 year old cars... the domestics make more warranty (and out of warranty) trips back to the garage. They break down more and have more issues. Fact. Again, if a Ford owner out there doesn't like that, too bad. Still fact.

11:41 I maintain my domestic full size drivetrain is far superior to the Tundra; the topic of this review?

Explain how such a limited Toyota large truck lineup surpasses better load, towing capability, ride, handling, better cost to own over 5 years on Edmunds with my new GM Silverado and with a far superior warranty. It drifts off over and over to fuel efficient little cars. There is just no basis of comparison comparing a little car to large full size trucks carrying loads and towing. The little imports drivetrain and weak bumper will be splattered all over the road. Hook up a hitch and fill the trunk up. Ever see the Home Depot picture of the overloaded car with building materials that a fool tried to use as a truck? Good gas mileage on the way there empty however.

I have never bought a new full size truck and discussed Civics, Corollas, Focue, Cobalts when I write my check for a new full size. If I were buying a little truck, I could see it to a point, but not full size models.

"It's also fact that domestics make more return trips the garage. Also fact; proven by surveys conducted on original owners of 3 year old cars... the domestics make more warranty (and out of warranty) trips back to the garage. They break down more and have more issues. Fact. Again, if a Ford owner out there doesn't like that, too bad. Still fact."

It would be nice to see a SOURCE cited for these "surveys". Where and when were they done? In what source were they published? (let me guess: A Toyota sales brochure, no doubt). We've asked repeatedly for a VALID and VERIFIABLE frequency of repair comparison. If you have it, please provide it (of course I won't hold my breath).

I buy new Silverados. With the amount of driving and towing I do, my Toyota warranty would be up in 1 1/2 years.

Length of ownership is one thing... actual mileage and especially much of it towing brings out a vehicle's strengths and weaknesses.

I buy new ones and sell around 80,000. There hasn't been any issues at that mileage other than I like newer features and order either more options or less of others not being used. I also examine aftermarket products that add versatility.

I like the utility of a fully functional full size pick up bed and hate caps. I went with an aftermarket Trac Rac system with my Knaack Weatherguard box, cargo containment that can be locked or easily removed with the slide rail system. Keeps the clean lines of the truck.

I personally dislike a lot of aftermarket garbage... load of lights and gaudy exterior accessories and the huge noisy hard riding tires and lifts.

I like upgrading engine performance without a lot of advertisement.

I'm not having repair issues. Granted I do not keep every truck 250,000 miles by choice, not out of necessity. I like drivability, handling, features, ride and great warranty that so far I haven't had to use.

I am fickle for the best and latest new vehicle... if I like something I move on it. If Toyota ever makes a better full size truck, I may buy one someday... it's not now.

19:20 I can't remember the specific source, and no, it wasn't a Toyota brochure, of course. I listed it a while back; something like Edmunds, maybe Consumer Reports; domestic fans on this site chose to simply tell me I was wrong or that the source was wrong, so why would I bother looking it up again? If I can't convince them of simple facts, then I'm done arguing because their opinions don't matter anyway. It's the same as telling them that the air they breathe has oxygen in it, and then they ask where I read it and tell me I'm wrong. I'm not looking up the source again only to have some Ford fan tell me that the facts are wrong and their opinion is right.

Toyota's make less trips to the garage. Fact. Period. Do some research and you'll come up with the same information. We Toyota owners already knew it without being told.

Why argue with strangers? Your opinion is your opinion... period. Not everyone shares the same repair warranty and out of warranty experiences based on their own personal direct ownership especially recent imports.... period.

The nice thing about this site is reading many collective comments, going to consumeraffairs.com and buying the car you like owning and driving the best as well... period. Maybe I just had a few import lemons in a row maybe just a remarkable coincidence. I like seeing everyone testing both... if that's not a valid an argument (which you seem to prefer) what is?

A lot of people on here have made frequent trips to the garage and are commenting that fact. First hand ownership strikes a nerve more so than someone than read something somewhere but forgot where it was. And then say thats a fact thats the way it is. Go to consumeraffairs.com and look at Toyota... newer ones. I remember seeing what I wanted to know on there. That's a fact and I remember where I read it.

OK, since I'm bored at the moment and have a few minutes, I will yet again prove all of these domestic fans completely wrong. You say the Big 3 make better automobiles than Toyota and Honda. You are wrong, and here's just a few examples of the proof that's already been offered here many times: These are printed from:

1. Motor Trend: without quoting, they say (in 2008) that Ford leads the domestics in reliability, GM is a mixed bag, and Dodge doesn't even enter into the running with only TWO vehicles with an average reliability rating. Japanese automobiles are still the most reliable, by a large margin.

2. Consumer Reports: "Ford's new sedan's shine among the domestics, but Japanese are still the most reliable by far" (their words). Quoting again (2008).."Of the 47 vehicles studied, (top 47 most reliable) 39 were Japanese, and only 7 of those were anything other than Toyota or Honda." More proof.

3. More from Motor Trend: Top 5 most reliable brands. 1. Scion 2. Acura 3. Honda 4. Toyota 5. Lexus. All Japanese. Proof again.

4. Car and Driver: Japanese cars are the most reliable, with Toyota's Prius leading all others.

Is that enough proof for you? I can find a lot more just like this. Ford, while improving, is not anywhere close to the reliability of Japanese cars. GM is extremely hit and miss, not really in the running, and Chrysler is basically a joke. Not even in the running.

So... other than stories about long-running domestics that are impossible to prove, let's see some proof from you domestic owners. The fact is, you won't offer any because it doesn't exist. Read the information above again. There are the facts. And by the way, citing the Ford Fusion doesn't mean anything. ONE car from a domestic automaker doesn't save Ford from sub-par ratings overall, and GM and Dodge don't even have a leg to stand on.

Other than your opinions, I'd be interested to see what you come up with. There's your proof, AGAIN.

The best proof is going to an import dealer waiting area and watching us write out the big checks for repair.

First hand direct ownership is the most telling of all. Why not encourage everyone to get behind the wheel and test drive every single new available vehicle in their price range? You can use publications to certainly help you. Since this is about full size trucks or at least it use to be... get out and drive them.

I am 6'2, maybe the seating position even with adjustments is awful... maybe the 5'1" driver cannot get in a decent enough position to drive and have to pay for a dreadful ride for 4 years.

What motor, gearing are you in the mountains or driving flat expressionless roadways. What are you carrying load wise or towing? Instead of carrying armfuls of publications, bring printouts off your computer or study specs pertaining to the specific vehicle you are buying. Maybe carrying Scion info to the dealership when they order a new full size truck may help the dealer salesman get a higher price from you.

I get the best buy when they know I have tested both import and domestic and they better work hard before and after the sale. I am a repeat buyer; it was one import after another for years and I am sure we were hosed. When your car or truck quit running and you are late for work or upset repeat visits, you look around.

If the Tundra is so terrific, why such dismal sales results even when the economy was going full speed a while back? Have you ever driven brand new domestic full sizes and then a Tundra the same day. Or is it walking around a lot on Sunday when the dealerships are closed looking at paint and peering in windows? I couldn't be bothered.... I have a requirement or specific applications and I get the keys.

Go from one dealer to another while the driving experience is fresh and get the greatest list of elements addressed. Then I write a check and waste no one's time.

"Toyota's make less trips to the garage. Fact. Period. Do some research and you'll come up with the same information. We Toyota owners already knew it without being told."

We're STILL waiting for you to cite some PROOF of this. Opinions based on 20-year-old domestics with 200,000 miles on them are not valid. Just WHERE are we to find this mythical "research"?? Please CITE SOURCES.

How can any automotive magazine, after driving a car several miles, make ANY valid assessment of how RELIABLE it is? Only genuine frequency of repair records can do this. I'd like to see THOSE (but I know I won't).

Just to solidify the facts a little more, here's some more proof of Japanese auto reliability from Consumer Reports:

- All 10 of their most reliable automobiles, from every category (small car, family car, small truck, etc) were Japanese with the exception of one; the Pontiac Vibe. 9 out of 10.

- Most reliable small cars? All Toyota and Honda. The whole list.

- Family cars? Top 4 were Toyota's and Honda's. Yeah, the great hope of Ford fans, the Fusion was in there. Behind two Toyota's and two Honda's, of course.

- Best large cars? All six were Japanese, with the exception of one Lincoln, which was third or fourth place

- Luxury cars? Lexus (obviously) and Infiniti.

- "Sporty" cars? All 6 Japanese.

- Wagons/minivans; the Pontiac Vibe came in first, the rest were all Japanese. 4 of 5.

- Small SUV's; all 6 Japanese, topped (of course) by; guess... Toyota and Honda. Same with large SUV's; all 6 Toyota/Honda.

- Pickup trucks? All four Japanese. Of course.