2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

05:34 Which part of consumeraffairs were you talking about? The part where they said "Toyota has one of the highest customer satisfaction records around and is about to displace GM as the leading auto seller?" OR... the part where they tell you that Toyota Camry was just named car of the year? OR... the part where it explains how Toyota, already the most fuel efficient vehicles in the world (along with Honda) are redesigning their already superior engines to increase gas mileage by 5%?

OR...well, I could go on and on. Yeah, I read the negative comments by owners. Guess what? If you're hunting for dirt about Toyota, I can guarantee you that for every ounce you find about Toyota, I will provide you with a TON for each of the Big 3. Toyota's are the better vehicles, obviously.

Consumer Reports findings ARE based on frequency of repair records. Toyota and Honda break down less - there's your proof. Yet again.

I offer proof from credible sources; several of them, Ford and GM fans offer nothing but opinion and stories.

21:16 obviously you did not read the earlier consumer affairs.com Toyota mechanical issues sludging, braking, air bags links.

I know you will refer to a fuel filler on Fords vs. condemn your own brand. It's amazing the "head in the sand" viewpoint based on ownership of a 15 year old small import truck and a few small cars next door. I wish I could have "found you" when I was presented with high import repair bills. Maybe it would have been free because it's absolutely impossible to follow exact mfr. recommended dealer service intervals on multiple new imports that literally impossible never have a major issue.

I can go for free mechanical repairs; where do you recommend and what dealership do you have that will eliminate my concerns? Dream on my friend.

It literally drops to small imports and cars on a full size truck review... Tundras should be selling bumper to bumper tractor trailer loads as they are the best. I was quite unimpressed driving them, guess I should test drive a Scion before my next new truck requirement.

17th Jan 2009, 15:54.

Just wanted to correct something you typed. The Pontiac Vibe is a re-badged Toyota Matrix. The Pontiac salespeople will even brag about this if you go to the lot and look at one of them. I found this out last year when my wife wanted a new vehicle, and the Vibe was listed as one she wanted to look at.

Myths die hard. Why anyone would buy a car built by a foreign owned manufacturer in these tough economic times is hard enough to understand, even if the vehicles were somehow superior (and not a SHRED of real evidence indicates that they are). If you want to extend the recession into a depression, you live in a country that gives you that freedom, even if it hurts you as well as your fellow citizens.

What I don't accept is an argument that has never had a SHRED of evidence to back it up. The only valid proof of any car's reliability is either 1) Frequency of repair reports, or 2) Real owner experience. Since Japanese car dealers are not about to let anyone know just how unreliable the new imports are, you will NOT see any frequency of repair reports on them.

If you read owner's experiences, you'll see that the domestic trucks are solid, reliable and get the job done. Owners report 200,000 miles or more on F-150's, Silverados and Dodge Rams.

Company owners (and my family falls in that category) use 100% domestic trucks and vans. We have to in order to make a profit in these tough times. We can't afford to be without a truck for days at a time because of bad engines (which Toyota is noted for lately) or accidents caused by defective brakes or front suspension (again, a Tundra trademark). With GM's 100,000 mile warranty the trucks are basically total profit for the first 5 years with zero repair costs. Compare that to Tundra's 36,000 mile warranty and much higher initial cost, and few business owners are going to go that route and lose thousands of dollars.

So what large SUV's and large pick up relevance were commented upon while you are on a full size truck review?

The thing with publications is you can pick and choose. I maintain the best way to buy a full size truck is make a large list of criteria and see who has the most elements present before you buy. Do not forget to test drive them all. The last thing you want to do is be stuck with a long term car loan riding in a crappy riding vehicle. I read someone bought a Checker for reliability... great, would I ever want one? Hardly.

I would rather research the specs loads, towing, ride, handling, people carrying capability, features, best warranty. I did that and did not buy a Tundra. If you are buying a Prius maybe your theory works.

It's important to get as many elements as you need and buy a new full size pickup. Application for a full size is the most important... it's likely the negative commenter even owns a new full size as their comments seem carlike or very small in their approach.

I walk in a dealer and tell them straight up I have towing in mind. I want reliability as well and not a lousy warranty that is up in our house in under 2 years. Owning a full size truck that is being functional, not just a substitute for a car or because it has higher ground clearance to off road, is not enough to perhaps move up and consider the advantages of full size truck ownership.

This has become a car and light truck review it seems... remember what the topic is. If you are spending another $10,000 plus, is there ever an application in mind over the small vehicle mentality? But if you never buy or own one, this may totally escape your reasoning.

15:59 The evidence is there and I presented it. Whether or not you chose to stay in denial about facts is up to you.

I don't care what owners on this site or any other say about anything, because none of it can be proved.

Forget the high-mileage stories, the postings about opinion. What can be reported as FACT is that all of the actual credible sources, all the major ones that I listed, the largest and most widely know automotive publications show Japanese vehicles as the most reliable. Period.

So go ahead and tell me more stories about your Fords and Chevy's. It's entertaining to a Toyota owner, knowing that I drive the most reliable vehicle made.

"This has become a car and light truck review it seems"

Yup and that's what the Toyota Tundra is -- a light truck (even if this thread has been hijacked). It was rated to tow somewhere between 6500-7200lbs and was designed to be a light half-ton pickup for folks who needed that. Do you need more? Buy something different. Toyota made no claim that this truck could do more.

"Only genuine frequency of repair records can do this. I'd like to see THOSE (but I know I won't) ".

Check out "Consumer Reports". That is what the name implies. It is a frequency of repair record. Please understand that their auto reviews aren't the same as their repair records. Their reviews are subjective; their data is a compilation of thousands of owners' experiences. I've even filled out their surveys a couple of times. They aren't very interested in what you FEEL about your vehicle. Mostly they just want to know what has broken on it.

"We're STILL waiting for you to cite some PROOF of this. Opinions based on 20-year-old domestics with 200,000 miles on them are not valid. Just WHERE are we to find this mythical "research"?? Please CITE SOURCES".

Again refer above. If your assertion becomes that somehow "Consumer Reports" has messed with the numbers, you may want to provide examples of the successful lawsuits that proved the same. Plus if you make that claim, you discredit the most reputable large-scale compiler of owner surveys in order to reinforce an over-small sample or prejudice.

Nevertheless there are some very good reasons to buy domestic. American manufacturers are better at muscle cars. They make the best off-roader (Wrangler). They make the best vehicles for trailering. Heavy-duty stuff is mostly American. Usually American vehicles come with a better warranty. They have amazing heritage. And, to top it off, American autos are getting MUCH better in every way quickly.

I used to own a Tundra. It was a very reliable truck. But it was a LIGHT truck designed for lighter loads and lighter pulling. It was no competitor for 3/4 and 1 ton pickups. Nor was it a competitor for a Jeep off-road. It was just a competent light-duty truck.

Finally it's funny that the anti-foreign crowd refers mostly to Asian manufacturers. Why? What about the Germans? They're foreign. I heard no complaints that the Dodge van is a Mercedes. Why not? All the same arguments apply. Patriotism is an issue either way. Why is it that 700 comments end up on Japanese vs. American threads but nothing comparable seems to exist elsewhere? There seems to be a double standard for "foreign". Just a friendly observation...

13:47 Thanks. Now I understand how a so-called domestic could win a reliability rating over other Toyota's. It IS one. I thought someone had made a huge mistake.

As a Toyota owner, I've been challenged to offer proof and have clearly done so. My case rests. Still waiting for something from the Ford and Chevy owners other than opinion and storys. Something tells me I'll have a LONG wait, since they know I'm right and can only offer opinion and personal preference, neither of which constitutes fact.

I have fun watching them try to make a case though. I guess I'm supposed to believe stories about their favorite Fords and ignore the expert opinion of every leading automotive publication out there... I do get a kick out of this.

18th Jan 2009, 15:59,

There were several posts that specifically listed various publications, reports, surveys, and reviews that ALL listed Japanese cars as generally better than those produced by Domestic automakers. Could you address this or simply keep stating that we have no "proof". The proof has been given. Several times.

Secondly, Japanese car manufactures are setup all over the Southeast where I live. They greatly benefit the local economy and the people's lives who work there. That the big Three exist in the rust belt where the economy is falling apart isn't very telling of how beneficial the big three have been. So not to sound cold, but so what. I could care less if the company is foreign or domestic. Either way, there are many in places like KY, TN, and AL who have good lives because of "foreign" companies.

Lastly, even if the big three survive, their product lineup is becoming increasingly off shored. Cars like the Vibe, Fusion, Aveo, Pontiac GTO, C6, Taurus, and many others have foreign underpinnings. Even some of the new Buick concepts were actually designed in China. In other words, the big Three have not exactly been good stewards in regards to keeping American jobs. This has been shown time and again, with plants built in Mexico, Canada, Brazil, and now even China and Korea. They're a business that must compete on a global scale, and with the high cost of union labor, that means progressively moving operations overseas. So even if you buy a brand-new Chevy with a Chevy badge, there's a good chance that it's actually more "import" than the imports made in KY. Think about that for a minute. Its certainly not the romantic image of the factory worker toiling in a Ohio plant.

Anyhow, I'm sure this argument will be never-ending. Oh well.

21:13 you have spent a tremendous amount of time on the Tundra thread... since you are sold on one, when are you going to purchase a new Tundra and join the proud ranks of full size truck ownership?

There has yet to be any application discussion coming forth just how you have interpreted others. I guess you do not have to own a specific type of category, however why devote so much time to a vehicle that you do not have an interest in acquiring? Anyone on here can run out and buy a magazine, but perhaps would like to be enlightened further by direct ownership daily issues, drivability etc. It adds a lot of credibility starting a comment " I have a owned a Tundra for the past couple of years and have found the following... Not what your next door neighbor has or a family member.

My mother has had new cars I have no clue about or have not even driven. I cannot write a valid summary on them as it's secondhand. I will spend more for a larger full size truck mainly because of the applications... am I solo on this? I somehow think that others buying at this point and time are doing the same. They need them. I suspect you have literature all about your arm chair..... I have a new full size truck in my driveway based on a list of criteria and road tests. I had to get out of the chair to do so and I decided and bought. Not a Tundra.

"So go ahead and tell me more stories about your Fords and Chevy's. It's entertaining to a Toyota owner, knowing that I drive the most reliable vehicle made"

Talk about irony. "most reliable"??? Even the highly biased car magazines that drool over ANYTHING foreign call the recent Toyotas an "uncharacteristic drop in quality". BEST?? By WHOSE STANDARDS.

Also, we ARE STILL WAITING for genuine, verifiable frequency of repair records from DEALERS, not some disgruntled owner who is upset that his cigarette lighter stopped working at 300,000 miles in his domestic, such as the commenter whose 200,000 mile Ford finally had a minor issue and he has now become a worshipper of anything foreign.

21:13 fact is when you have repeated engine, transmission issues in the import service dept and are handed bills to pay. My checkbook does not offer opinion just fact. Personal expense is the overall true factor when it's low mileage; due to the crappy warranty expiring, you just pay or sell it off.

21:13.

Still waiting for a Toyota fan (you?) to explain why if Toyota's are so reliable as, you claim, they are having constant engine failures:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html

Maybe you could also consider why all of these problems are not cited by the automotive publications you rely on so much. These problems are obviously going on; they are being reported to Consumer Affairs and indicated on reviews on this site in numerous reviews. Could it be that many automotive publications, much like many media outlets in general, are biased?

But, even while Consumer Reports had been writing accolades about Toyota for so long and perpetually placing them on their recommended list (EVEN WHILE ALL THESE TOYOTA ENGINE PROBLEMS WERE GOING ON), why is it now that they suddenly "rated" the Camry and Tundra as much worse than average in reliability and no longer recommend them. Is it possible that Consumer Reports could not cover for Toyota's horrible quality anymore, had to reluctantly give them a bad rating to try and save there already much precarious credibility, and then pretend that the problems only began recently?

You say all the testimonies of domestic owners who have had excellent experiences with their vehicles are irrelevant. So what is the point in arguing with you? You clearly do not want to listen to what anybody has to say. You would obviously rather listen to a handful of biased automotive publications that conveniently buy into the same myths you do, than the real world experiences of thousands of people.

Are you the same person who a while back stated that nobody posting comments on this thread was "qualified" to do so, and we should only listen to the biased automotive press? Whether or not you are that person, you sound a lot like them.

We have all heard the myth of Toyota's supposed divinity repeated over and over again. But as usual, no one has explained how/why Toyota has been having a their massive amounts engine failures.

Once again, please explain:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html