2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

11:04 Right on. This is the experience that just about everyone has with Toyota's. They eventually gain the sense to switch from domestic crap to something much better, and buy Toyota's or Honda's, and are impressed.

Just read that GM is closing a bunch or a few truck plants. While I feel bad for the workers, this is the position that GM has created for itself. If you continue to sell people junk, eventually all of the slick advertising fails to work, people realize that they bought junk, and switch to something better.

Toyota is opening plants here in the U.S. and GM is closing them down. As it should be. Each is reaping what they sow.

This is becoming a pointless argument. The fact is that GM and Ford are shutting their large truck and SUV plants down. It would seem to me that any company forced into making drastic changes in their lineup such as a shift away from full size trucks would invest more into such an appropriate vehicle. As of now, The Ford Ranger, which was never updated from it's 1992 redesign is no longer produced. Thus Ford doesn't have a small or ever mid-sized truck to compete with. GM has the Colorado, which is about the most gutless, old-fashioned, shoddily constructed small truck I've ever driven. Once again, these domestic manufacturers screwed up royally by not having a sufficient product to get them by during lean times.

Meanwhile, the only manufacture that has anything remotely acceptable in the form of a smaller truck and in many automotive journalist's superior is the Tacoma, which is light years ahead of anything spewing out of GM plants, which as mentioned in the news, will be less of.

You all who swear by your "domestics" seem to be ignoring the writing on the wall, which is that GM and Ford's days are numbered. Soon it won't matter: import brands will be your only choice.

GM is closing plants due to slumping SUV and truck sales. They depend on those sales more than Toyota, so when the market is down they get affected more. Toyota isn't escaping the downfall either. Near where I live they are building a plant for Highlander trucks.. guess what? They're pushing back the opening date to 2010 due to slumping truck/SUV sales. They probably would stop building if they could, but hey if I invested tens of millions dollar into something, I would finish the project.

Again, 21:44 gives not a SHRED of evidence, documentation, or even personal experience with GM in his comment.

He also distorts the news of GM's truck plant "closings" into a pointless (and false) argument that it is because of poor build quality.

Ford, GM and Chrysler are ALL are SWITCHING some of their truck plants to build smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles due to the outrageous price of gas, NOT any lack of quality (companies that build poor quality vehicles DO NOT warranty them for 100,000 miles!!).

Ford is switching its Mexico plant from large trucks to the small and VERY fuel efficient Fiesta (which is not sold yet in the U.S.). Ford has also INCREASED production of the fuel efficient Focus by 30% to meet the INCREASED demand for them. Sales of the Focus were UP 23% last quarter. Even Toyota is delaying the opening of its Tupelo, Mississippi plant a year because of the weakened market and high gas prices.

Virtually EVERY automotive source is in full agreement that the new Camry, Tundra and Yaris are not very good cars and trucks. As another comment has so aptly pointed out, even the extremely biased publications are now forced by the overwhelming crop of FACTS to drop their recommendations of the Camry and Tundra

Tundra sales are down as well. Is it so far fetched to assume that the full size truck plants are due to high fuel costs? I guess you conveniently left that factor out its 100% quality but wait... What is more an illustration of quality is Toyotas current #5 satisfaction ranking with current owners. GM is number 2, VW again in number 1 spot.

Lets look at it another way; total sales are up for small fuel efficient cars... not many are willing to spend $85 or more per tank in their full size truck. I appreciate high quality, handling, room, towing capability; that's why I have a new Silverado with a better reliability rating in 2008 and far superior warranty. I'll spend more for gas as I am quality oriented and not price driven. But I do appreciate the plight of many families with mortgages, rising food costs, fuel expense; in fact everything seems to have gone up. Something has to give for many families, and either cutting driving way back or buying high mpg vehicles... sales of Tundras were never significant anyway compared to the big 3. Ford alone over 7 times as many Tundras trucks sold.

Are you commenting on small car sales being up over gas pricing again on a full size truck review? Did you drive a new Tundra and a full size GM truck yet? I picked up the difference in less than 5 minutes.

We can afford fuel for our current large GM SUV, but will not buy another large vehicle because we don't really need or want another one. That is the opinion of the HUGE number of people who are switching to smaller vehicles, NOT any perceived difference in build quality.

The number of ads for used large trucks and SUV's in our local newspaper has QUADRUPLED over the past few months. That includes a HUGE number of Highlanders, Tundras and Sequoias. The number of car ads has DECREASED.

More people are opting to keep their fuel-efficient cars and sell their larger vehicles. We do not pull a trailer or have a large family, and we feel that our GM compact rides as well and drives better than our SUV, so we will, when the time comes to trade, buy another small vehicle simply because it is more economical and sensible for us.

I think that is the reason smaller vehicles are selling well, not any difference in quality. Everything I read tends to indicate that domestic vehicles are more reliable than imports, so we will most likely buy another GM.

Let's get some facts straight shall we? These "horrible" problems that you mention in regards to Toyota are for the following problems:

1: The V6, 6 speed Camry had - read again HAD a problem with a snap ring not being seated correctly, which in some cases caused the transmission to shift in a jerking fashion. The problem has already been corrected, yet you all act as if this happened yesterday.

2: The redesigned Tundra had an initial - yes INITIAL problem with 20,000 cams that were machined incorrectly from an American supplier - which I find somewhat ironic since these see-saw arguments seem to be heavily patriotic and nothing more. Again, this problem has been corrected.

Lastly, let's look at that report that seems to permeate every argument in regards to how "bad" toyota is. The latest JD power for June, 2008 report by brand is as follows:

1: Porsche

2: Infiniti (Nissan luxury brand)

3: Lexus (Toyota's luxury brand, some models based on the Camry)

4: Mercedes Benz

5: Toyota

6: Mercury

7: Honda

8: Ford

9: Jaguar

10: Audi

11: Cadillac

12: Chevrolet

13: Hyundai

14: Pontiac

15: Lincoln

And so on. Basically, Nissan, Toyota, and two upper end luxury cars made it to the top. Lexus is basically a Toyota with all the trimmings, so in reality, two of the top five were Toyota products. You have to scroll down to no.11 before you get to any GM brands. Mercury is admirably at no.6, but still below Toyota, and in reality, Mercury's offering include the Mariner and Montego-both heavily reliant on Mazda engines and platforms. So that easily explains their higher placement.

So the story isn't any different than it has been. Promises of better quality but nothing to show. Improved? Yes. Better? No.

The point of all of this is still that Toyota makes better cars, trucks, automobiles than the Big 3 ever did.

If Toyota and GM made toasters, the Toyota toaster would perform better and last longer than the GM toaster, for the same reason their automobiles do; they actually put time and effort into building an excellent product, and GM does not.

So are we buying a Tundra or high end Lexus? Small cars and small Tacomas are fuel efficient. Literally all small cars are selling well... domestic for and import. Since this is a full size truck review not Tacoma, Rangers etc what is the point? Small trucks do not fit any of the applications I must have... pointless to expect small cars and small trucks to meet applications. Why not discuss buses, bicycles, scooters and commuter trains for the debate on fuel pricing; it's not over quality, it's the strain on consumers... I see all manufacturers shifting to smaller fuel efficient vehicles.

Somehow the diehard import owner distorts facts. Are Land Cruisers with the V8 and the Tundras sales dramatically up lately? Don't think so. With the great quality, everyone should drive one and sell small cars and small Tacomas, and forget fuel gauges... high end import vehicles; why are their sales down now?

"The redesigned Tundra had an initial - yes INITIAL problem with 20,000 cams that were machined incorrectly from an American supplier - which I find somewhat ironic since these see-saw arguments seem to be heavily patriotic and nothing more."

Toyota never named the mysterious camshaft "supplier," if there even was one and we should take Toyota's word for anything. Thus, you have absolutely no basis to say where the (supposed) "supplier" was or was not located.

Furthermore, the problem was not due to incorrect machining, but was metallurgical - i.e., poor materials.

By the way, if an American manufacturer had that kind of a problem, would you be as forgiving?

Thank you 11:57. I've posted that several times myself.

Toyota/Lexus is still on top. Always were. Lexus has had that honor 13 years running. Since the creation of Toyota, Honda, and Nissan, the bar was raised, and the Big 3 can't compete.

14:16 I really liked the toaster analogy as it is absolutely dead on... when is the last time you remotely got excited to run out and buy a toaster? I cringe when I see the potato shaped uninspired styling prevalent today. I parked next to a Prius... no offense, it gets high gas mileage, but when repairs hit, and I have seen $2000 comments on repair of the electric steering lock, and who knows what the battery system will cost to repair at some point. But a toaster is a toaster; they get thrown away.

I guess I appreciate the timeless styling with many of the classic cars I have owned, and even today there is a resurgence in replicating these vehicles again. If you are content with an A to B vehicle, more power to you, but I shudder at many of the vehicles that people are currently buying to put a little fuel in and then point in somewhere.

I like opening my garage, and having intense satisfaction. Sure last month.. Aveo was up 39%... Malibu up 34%... CTS up 18%... Vibe up 65% and I prefer domestics, but honestly I do not like the direction the auto manufacturers are heading. It's all about MPG... sure a potato shape does great in a wind tunnel, but in my opinion there is more focus on how people fit inside, and then they ride around in the ugliest vehicles. It only gives one more incentive to work a lot harder and not be herded into boring bland vehicles (hence the toaster).

I hope I never lose the passion of driving, styling, performance and handling... putting a gas nozzle in and pointing a vehicle to point B somewhere seems likely over the unfortunate high price of fuel. I guess you can add a few import car options to make your toaster into a 4 slice instead of a 2 slice.... sorry not enough to remotely stir any driving passion however.

07:09 The 'ugly' and 'uninspired' remarks are opinion, which you're entitled to of course.

The imports are still without a doubt the better cars, and in MY opinion, much better looking and more fun to drive.

I know this is a Toyota review, but since we're on the subject of import/domestic, I just bought a Hyundai Accent, my aunt just bought an Aveo. The Hyundai looks, drives, and performs better in every way as far as I can tell. The Aveo feels like all small GM cars feel, sloppy. Like a Cavalier.

My Hyundai has more of the 'European' feel in the corners, like Honda does. And the interior in my Accent completely embarrasses the Aveo's interior.

You can reminisce about muscle cars if you like, but those days have long since been over. Nobody makes them anymore, and the Big 3's cars are as bland as any. There are cars that attempt to be like the old muscle cars, like the Charger and the new Mustang, but they aren't. Muscle cars were powerful and simple, no options, just 3 or 400 horsepower and a steering wheel.

Those days are gone. So, if you want to discuss modern cars, the best ones are made by Japanese manufacturers, as usual. Toyota, Lexus, Nissan, Infiniti, Honda. GM, Ford, and Dodge fell behind years ago and have been stumbling all over themselves trying to catch up. Not even a close race.

When I bought my last new car I wanted a SPORTY car. In test driving dozens of cars, only one filled the bill without bankrupting me: The Mustang. It was 5 grand less than the Camry "toaster" and is rated higher in overall build quality and reliability. If I wanted a basic appliance, I'd buy a Chevy Aveo or Ford Focus.

I DO believe we need to conserve fuel, and most of the time I drive my second car (a GM compact). Even it, however, has black-out wheels, 60-series tires, cold air induction and is bright red. I don't get excited over "toasters".

Well, you can call the imports 'toasters' if you like; that means nothing to me. What you can't do is say that the domestics build them better, because that is simply not the truth in any case. My import 'toaster' will outlast your GM compact and with less problems, as usual.