2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

It's hilarious how the thousands of seriously defective Toyota engines has magically dropped to "20". It never ceases to amaze me how import fans continue to grasp at straws to try and salvage a myth that Japanese vehicles are better. They have never yet provided a shred of hard evidence to back up their claims, and several thousand bad engines becomes "20".

As for Consumer Reports, I hate to burst your bubble, but Ford is rated HIGHER than either Camry OR Accord. If you're going to cite magazines, at least try to pick one that actually backs up your claims.

The Tundra is pretty much a thing of the past now anyway. Toyota has halted production and due to virtually no sales they will probably not resume production of it or the gas-guzzling and equally unreliable Sequoia.

Motor Trend wisely washed its hands of the Tundra and chose the Ford F-150 (once again) as Truck of the Year. Almost every day I see one or more new F-150's, Silverados or Rams with a new vehicle drive-out tag. I haven't seen a new Tundra in several months. All I can say is "Good riddance".

"Their sample would have had to include some of those faulty engines and transmissions -- unlikely if there were so few."

But their report was specifically for the Camry V6, 6 speed models. These are the top of the line Camry, and not exactly the biggest seller of the model, hence their production numbers are likely much lower than the other typical 4 cylinder and V6 5 speed automatic models. Thus it makes sense that a single trim of a model could be singled out and not recommended due to a flaw.

But the argument here is being blown out of proportion by the Import haters, whom point at this tiny selection of affected vehicles as indicating that Toyota's entire lineup is bad.

"As for Consumer Reports, I hate to burst your bubble, but Ford is rated HIGHER than either Camry OR Accord. If you're going to cite magazines, at least try to pick one that actually backs up your claims".

I'm the one (at least the main one I think) who has been promoting "Consumer Reports" data here on the forum. I didn't promote them simply because they support any particular claim about overall reliability.

This is a (ostensibly) 2002 Tundra forum. Back in 02 the Tundra was recommended because, while it was imperfect, the problems were still below the average pickup. However the new 07+ Tundra isn't recommended for the converse reason.

Consumer Reports has been reporting for a couple of years about the improvement of American makes and the more hit-and-miss quality (than has been true in the past) of Japanese-based imports. Ford has indeed improved... so has GM. Toyota has had several major introduction stumbles. Nissan has experienced very poor ratings on their Titan and Armada. They've also had a significantly lower corporate reliability average.

On the other hand -- just to cherry pick a bit -- the Fusion and Malibu have had few problems in their first years. Corporate quality averages still are better for Japanese based companies but since we don't buy companies --- we buy cars --- we need to be more informed than the customer who simply looks at country or company of origin to determine if the vehicle is reliable.

As I mentioned before, GM took out an advertisement basically apologizing for allowing their quality and innovation fall below industry standards. Who are WE to disagree with THEM? Toyota and Honda are widely seen as SETTING the industry standard for reliability. But...

They haven't been perfect as of late. This has been true of core products -- especially for Toyota. And Ford and GM are improving. So watch the reliability ratings data closely before purchase because "times -- they are a'changin'".

"But their report was specifically for the Camry V6, 6 speed models. These are the top of the line Camry, and not exactly the biggest seller of the model, hence their production numbers are likely much lower than the other typical 4 cylinder and V6 5 speed automatic models. Thus it makes sense that a single trim of a model could be singled out and not recommended due to a flaw".

I suspect you're right. But, while true, I think this shows that something at Toyota is slipping because it didn't happen in the past. Toyota and Honda could be relied upon to produce "fully baked" models from the outset.

The problems, though they affected so few, are surprising and concerning because Consumer Reports paints with the same brush whether it's an American, European, Korean, or Japanese vehicle.

The surprising things were the fundamental nature of the problems, the explanation (pushed into early production), and the importance of the models in question. Since I wouldn't give GM a pass if they did the same thing, I won't do the same for Toyota.

Most vehicles that Toyota has produced over many model years have been reliable from start to finish. We've grown accustomed to it... this just serves to prove that a degree of caution is in order no matter what company you buy from.

Now Ford and GM are producing some very reliable vehicles and some Japanese companies are producing some more trouble-prone models. As buyers, we need to be smart enough to avoid prejudices... this is true irregardless of whether or not it plays into the hands of the pro-domestic crowd. If a Fusion or Malibu is better than a Camry, for example, why shouldn't people buy it? But if a Civic is better than a Cobalt, for example, people shouldn't reward GM's poorer design by purchasing it.

Wait for GM to build something that better suits you. You do your country no favors by rewarding mediocrity. I'm voting for our automakers' success, but success should, in my opinion, be based upon improvement.

"It's hilarious how the thousands of seriously defective Toyota engines has magically dropped to "20"."

Its even funnier if the opposite is true, wouldn't you say?

Let's face it...we're jousting at ghosts. We don't know if these figures are accurate; The 20 is Toyota's figure (for the 2007 Tundra), the "thousands" figure is based on other model years taken cumulatively and anecdotally. The truth may be somewhere in the middle. So let's stop arguing. OK?

00:10 Talk about grasping at straws...

#1. Everything you said was untrue and non-factual.

#2 Ford isn't rated higher than Toyota and never has been in any major publication. You may have found a single model that was (let me guess... the Ford Fusion), but overall, and it always has been and still is, Japanese automobiles are higher rated.

#3 The F-150 isn't rated higher than the Tundra, and if you care to mention about it being "truck of the year", please remember that the Tundra has been also.

#4 Import fans don't need to grasp at straws to prove the obvious superiority of Japanese automobiles, since we have the ratings and the proof to back it up.

#5 You may like Fords, and that's fine, but Toyota makes the better cars and trucks. Refer to a bunch of the earlier comments in which proof of this is repeatedly cited. Of course, if you actually recognized and accepted these facts, you'd be driving Toyota's, so I'm not holding my breath.

I can't wait to read the response to this, as usual. I can see it now..."fords are better, because I like 'em"...

"But their report was specifically for the Camry V6, 6 speed models. These are the top of the line Camry, and not exactly the biggest seller of the model, hence their production numbers are likely much lower than the other typical 4 cylinder and V6 5 speed automatic models. Thus it makes sense that a single trim of a model could be singled out and not recommended due to a flaw"

So Toyota only sold TWENTY V-6 6-speed Camrys in 2007-2008???

"So Toyota only sold TWENTY V-6 6-speed Camrys in 2007-2008???"

The twenty were 5.7 liter engines in 07 Tundras. The problem in the Camry is a transmission issue primarily in the 07 6-speed auto.

Moreover that wasn't what he was saying. What he was saying was that, while the problem only affected 1/2 of one percent of ALL Camrys, the ones affected were only the ones with the 6 speed trans. So the real percentage may be more like 3%-4% of those models. That percentage may be high enough for Consumer Reports to flag the models with that transmission as unreliable compared to the average midsizer.

While that may be true, I wonder if there are other problems as well because I've read about owners who had to have the transmission reprogrammed because of an over-long delay in shifting.

"The 20 is Toyota's figure (for the 2007 Tundra)"

Gee, now how convincing is THAT?? TOYOTA's figure!! WOW!! I bet they really convinced the import fans with THAT ONE!!

I've always known that 99% of all the "it's better" hype came directly from import ads and nothing of a real-world nature. If 30 flawless domestics over a 30-year period doesn't convince import fans of the reliability of them, NOTHING ever will.

The odds of us getting 30 VERY GOOD domestic vehicles in that time and THREE ALL BAD imports is proof enough to last me a lifetime, even if the latest data showed otherwise (and it doesn't).

What is the statistical probability that 30 domestic vehicles from all three domestic makers would ALL be perfect while ALL THREE of our imports were lemons?? I'm eagerly waiting for some math wizard to run the odds on this, but something tells me it will never happen. It's like asking for frequency of repair records, It's not gonna happen!!

There have been some comments about the two year delay in Consumer Reports reliability data. An good alternate to look at is www.truedelta.com. The results come much quicker there.

Most of the time the results match what I see in Consumer Reports. But some things make a lot more sense over there. For instance I know 3 people with BMW 3-series cars. All of them have things breaking at least once a year. Truedelta shows BMW cars having more problems than other cars, but Consumer Reports shows the 3-series as better than average in reliability. It could be a matter of Consumer Reports filtering out problems they don't think matter? I don't know.

My next door neighbor had her BMW coffee cup holder break 4 times. Each time she paid $140 to get it fixed at the dealership. At Truedelta, that would be reported in the general category of successful repair. At Consumer Reports, I assume that would be filtered out because they say they only report serious problems.

15:52 what better comment than to buy a personal brand new full size truck and comment that you do like it. It's nice reading again about the V6 Camry, how thought provoking on a full size truck review.

What is the favorite feature you like about your new Tundra? I own a new full size Silverado... rather than peruse articles as none of these publications buy my vehicles, I get out of my chair and drive.

When you researched your brand new full size truck, what made you buy one rather than a small car or small truck? If you do not own one, I wonder what exactly would be the stimulus to buy the large models? Usually it's applications that prompts the decision.

I never talk about small cars and small trucks in the same context... there's zero utility mentioned.

The repair factor keeps popping up, but there's no point of addressing until an actual need is established. I like a 100,000 mile warranty and in fact have not had reason to use it. I have my truck (s) subjected to actual applications, towing, bed loads, people carrying not carrying light loads or empty. Do you tow or carry anything, or is it about a Camry?

"It could be a matter of Consumer Reports filtering out problems they don't think matter? I don't know.

My next door neighbor had her BMW coffee cup holder break 4 times. Each time she paid $140 to get it fixed at the dealership. At Truedelta, that would be reported in the general category of successful repair. At Consumer Reports, I assume that would be filtered out because they say they only report serious problems."

That's a great question. In the CR surveys I filled out, minor things like that usually end up in the general "body integrity" category. They don't simply filter them out. Also CR often releases data sooner than 2 years in their annual auto issue, but not in the buying guide.

As far as the differences that show up between two reliability reporting publications;

#1 They probably have slightly different methods for reporting and weighting the data.

#2 They may have different minimum sample sizes.

#3 They may have different methods for gathering data

#4 There are anomalous differences all the time, even within the same publication, which makes looking for multi-year trends a good idea.

#5 There may be differences in the regions that were reported upon (for example, one publication may be sampling European BMW 3 Series while the other is sampling the American version).

It's nice to have more than one place to look for info. JD Powers reports especially on initial quality. CR reports on long term reliability. Car and Driver reports primarily on performance aspects of vehicles. Other mags emphasize luxury. Some sites emphasize anecdotal stuff that can be used to help you find out where a vehicle's problem areas are, and how well the dealers and manufacturers respond.

And no one should overlook the all-important test drive. One guy on here has complained that no one seems to decide what truck they drive based upon capacities and capability. I think most serious buyers would indeed look at those considerations as primary ones, but this discussion has been sidetracked by the reliability debate. Anyway, cheers.

10:28 asks some very good questions. In choosing new full size trucks, my family's companies use the following criteria:

1) Does the truck have a good track record? ALL domestics do, Tundra DOES NOT.

2) Does the truck have a good warranty? ALL domestics do, Tundra DOES NOT.

3) Is the purchase price realistic? ALL domestics are, Tundra is NOT.

4) Will the dealer in your area stand behind the vehicle? In our area Ford DOES NOT, GM DOES, Dodge varies, and Toyota is the WORST. The warranty doesn't matter. Toyota (here) won't even repair their vehicles that ARE under warranty.

5) Can the truck be relied upon to perform daily without undue down time? ALL domestics can, Tundra CANNOT.

It should be easy to see why none of our fleet is anything other than domestic.

"It's like asking for frequency of repair records, It's not gonna happen!!"

Particularly if you don't read them when they're presented. AGAIN, and listen carefully, all the data you could ever want on compiled frequency of repair records is available from Consumer Reports (and truedelta, apparently). It's not as if this is an endorsement for the Tundra. Consumer Reports doesn't recommend the 07 and says that even after the problems with the engine were addressed, its still only rated average. It also shows that earlier Tundras had brake issues. So don't be afraid to check.

"What is the statistical probability that 30 domestic vehicles from all three domestic makers would ALL be perfect while ALL THREE of our imports were lemons?? I'm eagerly waiting for some math wizard to run the odds on this, but something tells me it will never happen."

The odds have to be astronomical, especially in light of the repair data over the implied time span. Certainly no one would fault you for choosing domestics if, in fact, what you said is the unvarnished truth. The trouble is... I don't know you. Likely no one else on this forum does either. So why should we take the word of a stranger whom we've never met over the large-scale data of respected consumer organizations especially if the premise is that ALL domestic vehicles=good; all foreign vehicles=bad?

I've had my own set of experiences with my own vehicles and those of friends and have seen problems with all -- foreign and domestic. I'm not going to try to get you to buy anything you don't believe in. You aren't going to convince a stranger to do that either. Most serious buyers probably DO look at vehicles from many perspectives before purchase to determine if it will suit their needs. They buy the vehicle that is capable, reliable, reputable, affordable, and available. So your argument runs far shy of compelling, no matter how often you repeat it.

10:28 The argument here pertains to ANY Toyota versus any domestic (Ford, Dodge, GM) vehicle. The fact is, no domestic is as good as any Toyota. Because, Toyota clearly puts much more time and effort into every step of the practice of making automobiles.

From the very beginning, in research and design, testing, to actual assembly, Toyota is far superior. They build the most reliable, highest quality cars and trucks in the world. Period.

They are number ONE in surveys concerning customer satisfaction... are the owners happy with their vehicles? Toyota ranks first. As it should be. It's about the fact that some people can't stand the fact the Japanese cars and trucks are of higher quality.

As if the Dodge Neon or Chevy Cobalt is as good a car as a Corolla or Civic. These are the same people who think that a Silverado is as good a truck as a Tundra. Not even close.