2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

This is from around comment 495.

"The story of GM is like a lot of older companies. They grew into a sleepy dinosaur, and ignored the changes happening around them"

"A good analogy would be Budweiser. Their beer is bland, tasteless, and cheap. Nobody drinks it because the stuff is "good". They drink it because it is cheap and simply sufficient. Then comes all the small microbreweries. At first they didn't care. They were still the biggest/baddest beer company on the planet. But slowly and surely, companies like Fat Tire, Sierra Nevada, and Sam Adams grew and became popular with primarily younger, more demanding Americans. Sure - good ole' Dad might still drink nothing but Budweiser, but the the future generation hates the stuff. Hence Budweiser is losing sales and as of last night, I saw their new "American Ale" on TV, which like GM - is a simply a catch-up product that they should've come out with years ago. Now they simply look like a cheap imitator and the younger generation will heed them no attention."

I think these observations are fascinating in maybe an unintended way. Almost every car magazine review of a Camry uses the word "bland." I read in a business magazine that in surveys of people under the age of 30, Toyota is viewed as being one of the worst automobile brands for value received for how much money you spent. Ford is quite a bit better at mid pack in that regard. Sorry I don't recall how any other brands fared.

Last year, the average age of Toyota buyers increased by a full year. Simply put, young people don't buy Toyotas. They see those as unhip and square as I thought my parents music was. (They also think the special effects in Star Wars look really lame.) Toyota saw these shifts in attitudes coming a long time ago and launched the Scion brand to circumvent this. How this fits in with the lower than expected sales of Tundras I am not really sure. I haven't been able to figure out what age group they expected to buy Tundras.

The young people I talk to seem to be completely clueless that any brand of vehicle can have significant reliability issues. They just think everything new is good and everything is going to last 100,000 miles.

Okay here comes another "off-topic" comment.

I don't think ANYONE here is "ridiculing" the word "Patriot".

"Last year, the average age of Toyota buyers increased by a full year. Simply put, young people don't buy Toyotas."

But they do buy Acuras, Lexus, Audis, Honda Civics, and Scions. The beer analogy is spot-on. But I'll extend it further. Let's not kid ourselves. A product is the most successful if it can appeal to a wide swath of the population. But just like beer these days, there is a distinct divide between the types of people who consumes them. If you drink Bud light, there's a pretty good chance that you're conservative, rural or perhaps living in the burbs, and middle aged. If you drive an Acura, there's probably a good chance that you're liberal, metropolitan and younger, as in 20-35 or so. Seriously - when was the last time you saw a good ole' boy driving an Acura or a yuppie driving a Ford truck? It simply doesn't happen.

I'm not picking favorites here. But perhaps this shows that the population and its demographic has changed as well as its preference for consumer goods. What's more, when shifts in demographics occur, you typically get some friction, which means those in the aforementioned groups, and particularly the shrinking group will cling more tightly to their lifestyles as a defensive measure.

Either way, companies have to adapt to these shifts. Otherwise they will fail.

"But I WON'T stand up on my soapbox and make claims about people I don't know; Whose lives are a complete mystery to me; Whose experiences are different from mine; And whose decisions are thus affected in such a way as to make them do something I won't. They may indeed be patriotic AND drive a Toyota... if for no other reason than that they lack your omniscience."

I don't feel that a person can be TRULY patriotic and at the same time help bring about the destruction of an entire American industry and destroy the lives of millions of our fellow citizens. The lame arguments that there are a handful of Toyota and Honda plants in the U.S., or that Ford outsources work to Mexico has ZERO bearing on the issue.

To speak of the U.S. No longer being a "manufacturing" nation is a slap in the face to every unemployed auto worker, service tech, car salesman, parts house employee or jobber that has been put out of work by those who have no concept of patriotism. In my area we now have over 1000 new unemployed men and women seeking jobs due to dealerships closing. NONE of these people had anything to do with manufacturing, and I doubt that they will be very sympathetic to the "don't buy American" crowd.

Off-topic is a good description for this whole thread. Here it is: when I buy vehicles, I'm not worried about what country I'm from, what country the vehicle was made in, I'm not thinking about patriotism, flags, or anything OTHER than -- is this the best vehicle I can get for the money?? Which is why I drive Toyota's. Because they ARE, along with Honda, the best, most reliable vehicles made. Anything else is a lesser quality product.

I'm very confused as to how a forum where owners discuss the pros and cons of the vehicle they own, has now turned into a debate on patriotism.

I own one domestic vehicle and one import - does that make me a patriotic or unpatriotic?

I'm so confused!

I wonder how so called uneducated, uninformed domestic good ole boys that swill cheap beer can actually afford a new $122,000 new 2009 GM Corvette with stock supercharged 630 hp LS9 extensive usage of carbon fiber components, carbon ceramic brakes.

Sorry but advanced technology may be obvious to a 20 year basic transportation Toyota owner to grasp. So you actually tested one and are an expert on all models.

Some of us buy not based strictly on price... but a weak watered down import warranty is definitely not a plus, as is bland uninspired transportation. Drive everything first hand before making recommendations with such a broad sweep. It's highly inaccurate. A person that hates a Corolla may like a Lexus; same situation.

"I don't feel that a person can be TRULY patriotic and at the same time help bring about the destruction of an entire American industry and destroy the lives of millions of our fellow citizens."

Then there must not be a single innocent person in this whole country then. At one time untold millions upon millions of Americans made things in factories. I collect antique radios from the 20's-50's. If I work on one, ALL of the components (tubes, diodes, capacitors, and cabinets) are made in the USA. There were hundreds of brands of radios too, and after that, TV sets, stereos, and Hi-Fi systems. All Made in America. But one by one, companies like Zenith, RCA, Crossly, Philco, GE, Atwater Kent, and others suffered the same fate: They were done in by cheap imports or the result of those companies outsourcing their manufacturing elsewhere. The US consumer electronics industry died primarily in the 70's. They are all long-gone now, and with it the millions of jobs that put these products on American shelves. I know for fact that every single person in this country has either a TV set, a radio, or a computer. ALL of them are made somewhere besides the USA. Thus when you say that people who buy foreign wreck US jobs, then you yourself are also guilty, and so am I. We all are.

But all is not lost. We have a choice in this country, and if one loses a job in one industry, then he/she has the right and ability to change to adapt. I work in the tech industry myself and prior to that was in another industry and had to make a dramatic change in my life by getting an education and learning new things. For those millions who are losing their jobs, they have the same decisions to make as I did, and thus it is their responsibility to make that choice, not mine. Do I like the fact that manufacturing is disappearing from the US? No, not at all. But the reality is inevitable. I imagine that any day now we will be getting cheap Chinese cars, and once we do, put one more nail into the Big Three's coffins. History happens. Life goes on.

"Those Japanese and European companies (Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mercedes, BMW) have all built plants in the US because they can actually build their cars more efficiently and cheaper than they can in their own countries. This just comes to show that the big Three have been running an inefficient machine for years, for if they can't even operate in their own home turf, then they have some severe management issues."

I think GM and Ford have never been allowed to build non-union plans on their home turf in the USA. Toyota, Honda, BMW have been allowed to build non-union plants. (Kentucky for Toyota, North Carolina for BMW.) Is this correct, or I am misinformed about that?

10:18 labeling a full size truck owner in a neat category may be difficult. Malcolm Forbes was a prime example on changing that viewpoint on who owns new Harley Davidsons. It crosses every segment, and you are likely to see executives, celebrities etc. now acquiring them.

Not everyone is a farmer that owns a full size truck, and even so, what's the difference? I am a boater, not near any farmland, yet own a new full size domestic truck. I see all summer long boaters with new full size domestics towing beautiful wakeboard/ski boats, even some Fountains at the ramps. I suspect they are business owners, young and older execs to enjoy this for recreation, and many of the tow vehicles are diesel Fords, Chevrolet and Dodge Rams. If you want to classify them you may be far off target.

I know individuals that own multiple new vehicles, and they have new trucks as yet another vehicle. My household has owned both import and domestics, so I cannot see any labeling applying. What I do so is taking away strictly price and searching, and buying the very best available.

I am not cruising around in an Escalade or Hummer Pickup, but I want a large list of practical applications and utility addresses or I am not buying. Test everything in your price range and then buy the new full size you like.

If someone drinks Bud or a Belgiam Trapist Ale, that's the last thing I address when I am in the showroom buying another new vehicle to enjoy with my family.

"I don't feel that a person can be TRULY patriotic and at the same time help bring about the destruction of an entire American industry and destroy the lives of millions of our fellow citizens. The lame arguments that there are a handful of Toyota and Honda plants in the U.S., or that Ford outsources work to Mexico has ZERO bearing on the issue."

I was careful to point out that these are MITIGATING issues. I also said that I'll be buying American because I agree if you or anyone else says that these points aren't sufficient to compose a completely compelling argument. But completely compelling or not, they are real considerations that lead people to buy without feeling twinges of conscience about their choice. Thus they suffer no crisis of patriotism.

If a buyer has had multiple problems with their domestics, they may feel that trying something else is necessary. They may feel very little sympathy for those who did such a poor job of assembling their last car if it was troublesome.

Nevertheless, they will salute the flag, and even give their lives on a foreign field for their country while you and others refer to them as something less than "TRULY" patriotic... simply because they have the unmitigated temerity to own a Toyota.

While this example is fictitious, it would require some kind of unbelievable intellectual blindness to think that there haven't been many of our fallen who owned a foreign vehicle. In truth you would never see them as unpatriotic if you met them. You may see them as misguided in their vehicular choice, but not unpatriotic.

And THAT is exactly my point. There are many who, for one reason or another, love their country but drive a foreign vehicle. You shouldn't be so quick to label people whom, as I said, you've never met, whose experiences aren't yours, and whose decisions are thus different from yours.

I own a Jeep Wrangler (very Patriotic vehicle) and a Saab.

Does this make me only half as Patriotic as a guy who owns a Ford Truck, but twice as Patriotic as a guy who drives a Camry? Or do I get bonus points because Saab is owned by GM?

Does anybody know the equation that would help figure this out?

So hopefully we are beyond labeling import/domestic and test thoroughly behind the wheel for our new 2009 full size pickups. If you are not in the market to buy, then printing any old thing is not a risk anyway. I say if you make the plunge, test and compare every single full size.

"Let's not kid ourselves. A product is the most successful if it can appeal to a wide swath of the population."

Most cars are targeted into more narrow demographic groups than one might think. The salesmen at car dealerships are trained to categorize people when they come in and steer them toward the vehicles they match up to. They aren't just being friendly when they ask if are married, have kids, where do you work, where did you go to school, did you watch the football game last night, etc.

You will notice you have been categorized sometimes if you keep insisting on looking at cars that are out of your target group. Some of the older salesmen have learned the demographic targeting is pretty accurate. They will get frustrated with you and say things that kind of sound like "will you stop looking at cars that eventually you will realize you will never buy and come look at something you might actually buy?"

A funny story I read concerning this is the Honda Element. It was targeted at adults age 20 to 30, but it didn't do as well as expected with them. But it turned out to be something of a hit with 50 year olds who see it as a great car for bringing home flowers and garden supplies. It is hard to get the marketing correct every time.

"I see all summer long boaters with new full size domestics towing beautiful wakeboard/ski boats, even some Fountains at the ramps. I suspect they are business owners, young and older execs to enjoy this for recreation, and many of the tow vehicles are diesel Fords, Chevrolet and Dodge Rams. If you want to classify them you may be far off target."

You exemplify the point. Again - who typically owns jet skis, boats and other toys they tow to the lake on weekends, and drive big honkin', typically US brand trucks? The same guys who drink Bud light, live in the burbs, are generally conservative, have zillions of kids, and shop at Wal-Mart. Sounds ugly, but it's the truth.