2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

"Lastly the import vs. domestic argument is pointless."

Not to tens of thousands of Americans who have lost their jobs due to people who think "the import versus domestic argument is pointless".

People seem to think that buying a Toyota, Honda or Nissan is "patriotic" because there are a handful of (Japanese owned) factories in the U.S. employing a minute number of workers (at low wages with poor benefits). It is only "patriotic" if you are a citizen of Japan.

The U.S. auto industry is the backbone of our economy (and ALL prominent economists agree). To destroy it based on ad hype and myth is simply cutting YOUR OWN throat. Modern domestics have long ago surpassed ALL Japanese brands in terms of warranty, reliability and build quality. Do a bit of research on both economics AND vehicles before making such harmful statements. The F-150 is "Truck of the Year". The Tundra is history. At least we have that much to be thankful for.

"Modern domestics have long ago surpassed ALL Japanese brands in terms of warranty, reliability and build quality. Do a bit of research on both economics AND vehicles before making such harmful statements."

To the first point --- Domestic vehicles long ago surpassed ALL Japanese brands in terms of reliability, build quality and warranty. Thanks for the assertion. Here's another one. Bologna. Wrong. Incorrect. Reassertion doesn't serve to prove a point. Every study on that subject suggests that only NOW are American vehicles getting close to the average Japanese vehicle. Granted, you deny the outcomes of every large-scale study that doesn't support your preconception. But you should at least agree that GM's statement about how their quality and innovation had fallen below industry standards was a repudiation of your viewpoint.

Second point -- We should research economics and vehicles before making such harmful statements -- (that this argument is pointless), apparently. I've taken 5 economics classes -- with an emphasis on so called "free market" economics (not macro economics, though). I've read major publications on automobiles for years. It's sort of a hobby of mine. I just like good machinery. I've had a subscription to "Car and Driver" for years. I've also had subscriptions to "Automobile", "Consumer Reports", "Autoweek", and frequented various on-line sites with an automotive emphasis like "Edmunds", "About-cars", "Truedelta - I'm a member", "JD Powers" and "Inside Line Automotive News". Apart from that, I like to stop by all the local dealerships as new models are released because there's nothing like first-hand experience.

Anyway I'm probably not a part of the ignorant class into which you imagine those who disagree with you fall.

That aside, let me repeat -- This argument is pointless. Why? Because, while I agree with you that it's probably better to buy American than even a "Made in the USA" foreign vehicle, I think that the need by most on here to just assert a position without seeing a need to support it beyond their own experience, leads to argument with no point and no end.

It's the ARGUMENT that's pointless. The POINTS aren't pointless. It really DOES matter that folks are being laid off (according to every major newspaper). It MATTERS that most manufacturing has gone overseas (same source -- along with first hand experience at Wal-Mart, et all). It MATTERS that American auto manufacturing fell behind their counterparts (according to GM). It MATTERS that they are catching up (according to CR and JD Power). It MATTERS that tax dollars are being used to prop them (GM and Chrysler) up (according to the automakers, newspapers, congress). And finally it does matter that we consumers can help the situation (according to logic and the automakers).

Again, it's the argument that has become pointless -- and THAT only because of the MANNER in which some have chosen to argue. They don't support their points. They don't support them with appropriate research. They imagine that ridiculing and labeling someone else's perspective is going to achieve their ends. They aren't willing to change their minds. And when their arguments are as completely repudiated as an argument can be, they simply start all over and reassert their original point.

So... what's the point??

11:07 far off topic yet again. If you look at someone and can determine who and what they buy, it's a poor excuse for clearly asking what they are actually looking for.

A poor guy in a suit may have just left a funeral and may be a Corolla candidate. I could have been out cleaning my garage and bought a $60,000 sports car. I know of a saleman that sold yachts that ran over to the guy in the suit and had a very minor sale, while at the same moment a very plainly dressed gentleman bought a large yacht from another. As far as appearances he was a pauper.

Some of the Lexus models are not cheap; are they really necessary? Find a Toyota pickup that can drop a Fountain powerboat at the ramp. It's not excessive when you have a clear application and vehicle to address your requirements. If you do not own a late model full size again and again the small car, small truck may be inescapable to comprehend.

I would rather see each vehicle be compared to best applications and testing both import and domestics. I did and bought without worrying over brand loyalty... the best got my order.

11:09 I have done a lot of research. A lot more than you. Your comment about domestics passing imports in quality and reliability is completely baseless and incorrect. You can't back it up with a single fact. Because... all the experts still rate Toyota and Honda on top.

I don't care what you or anybody else thinks in the backbone of the country's economy -- I don't buy any type of sub-par product no matter what product it is. Which means I'm certainly not buying a Chevy or a Ford when I can buy a Toyota.

Not that patriotism has any bearing at all on vehicle purchase, but what the hell. Since we're talking about it, here's my take on it: the Big 3 are an embarrassment to automobiles and an embarrassment to any 'patriotic' American. If they were truly concerned about keeping Americans buying American vehicles, they'd have built better ones and not been outclassed by foreign companies.

Ford and GM deserve their due credit, for being the pioneers in the automotive industry.. they did a lot of things first. However, if I'm having brain surgery tomorrow, I don't want the first guy to do it operating on me, I want the best one. Toyota and Honda have taken everything that the Big 3 have done and improved drastically on it, while GM, Ford, and Dodge all got lazy, started cutting corners long ago and building cheaply made, shoddy cars and trucks. That's the reason Toyota and Honda have grown to such proportions in the United States. And it's also the reason that GM, Ford, and Dodge are lucky to be in business today - only due to government choosing to make the taxpayers keep them alive a little longer.

Make no mistake, these aren't my opinions. Anybody who watched them beg the congressional committee for money heard Rick Wagoner say that GM would be bankrupt by this PAST new year if they weren't given money. All of the domestic fans can rant and rave if they like, it makes no difference to a proud Toyota and Honda owner. The companies I choose to buy from have a reputation for quality, unlike Ford, GM, or Dodge.

You can pretend their 'near death experience' was simply mismanagement of money if you like, the world knows the truth: Toyota and Honda may suffer sales lapses too in a bad economy, but they're doing fine BECAUSE, even in tough times, people buy what they know is a quality product, which leaves the Big 3 out of the picture. If and when they ever get serious about building something worth buying, I'll look at them again when I buy. It hasn't happened yet.

"You exemplify the point. Again - who typically owns jet skis, boats and other toys they tow to the lake on weekends, and drive big honkin', typically US brand trucks? The same guys who drink Bud light, live in the burbs, are generally conservative, have zillions of kids, and shop at Wal-Mart. Sounds ugly, but it's the truth."

I don't find this comment "ugly" at all. It's basically true (except maybe the "zillion kids"), and not necessarily offensive. People generally ARE grouped rigidly into pretty tight demographic groups. As a former car salesman, however, I was taught NEVER to categorize people. I was taught to steer the potential buyer to another vehicle ONLY if it appeared that they could not AFFORD what they were looking at. If I walked onto a dealer's lot to look at a Mustang and was told it might be better if I looked at a Fusion, I would tell the salesman where to stick it and leave.

"But they (young people) do buy Acuras, Lexus, Audis, Honda Civics, and Scions."

When I read that I thought Lexus didn't sound right, but I thought of course the Honda Civic was correct. So I did some searching on the web.

Average age of Lexus buyer 61

Average age of Buick buyer 62

Average age of Toyota Avalon buyer 61

Average age of Audi Buyer 48

Average age of BMW Buyer 48

Average age of Honda Civic buyer 51.

Wow, the last one was a shocker to me. There are quite a few articles about it on the web. What I really feel embarrassed about is that is my sister-in-law age 56 just bought a Honda Civic, and now that I think about it, just about everyone I know that has bought a new one is older.

I'm not sure how that one slipped by me, except now maybe I am getting old enough that everyone below the age of 40 looks like a youngster to me. Or maybe it is because Civics are a common first car for a young person as a hand me down from Mom and Dad. But now that I think about it, all those young people with the hand me downs tell me they are going to buy something completely different once they have the money.

"Again - who typically owns jet skis, boats and other toys they tow to the lake on weekends, and drive big honkin', typically US brand trucks? The same guys who drink Bud light, live in the burbs, are generally conservative, have zillions of kids, and shop at Wal-Mart. Sounds ugly, but it's the truth."

I wonder if you took a consensus at any of the 3 boat ramps at Lake Havasu, Az. how much if any of the above comment is remotely accurate?

I am personally in agreement with "honkin trucks" that are small and large with ridiculous body lifts, 36" tires and tacky flash and trim. I have actually removed emblems for cleaner lines. I do believe in performance upgrades hidden under the hood.

Sacrificing ride and handling quality with the big lifts and tires is a waste. I had gone through that phase with 1 full size long ago and found a uninterrupted 8 foot bed, the lower the height the better, with nice street tires is the nicest trucks.

If you drive short distances or are caught up in adding tacky trim and lifts, that's your prerogative and your money. I am just giving my own observation on what makes a nice full size truck to drive distances with and without tow loads.

As far as conservative who drives small Toyotas.... perhaps families that cannot afford high end beer, have young families, elderly Camry owners that maybe shop frequently at Walmart. Sounds ugly but my observation is a more likely scenario. Walmarts sales volume was also up last year likely from the economy oriented folk shopping there.

"As far as conservative who drives small Toyotas... perhaps families that cannot afford high end beer, have young families, elderly Camry owners that maybe shop frequently at Walmart. Sounds ugly but my observation is a more likely scenario. Walmarts sales volume was also up last year likely from the economy oriented folk shopping there"

Driving sensible cars or shopping where prices are best does not necessarily reflect any particular deomgraphic or economic status. I live in a very upscale neighborhood and work with extremely wealthy clients. I often encounter my wealthy clients in the aisles of Wal-Mart (and did well BEFORE the economic crisis hit). Most truly savvy wealthy people seek out the best prices on things. Two of my favorite clients live in homes costing well over a million dollars and both drive Hyundais. While having a conference with one of our very wealthiest clients, he placed his keys on the table as we were talking. I noticed the Ford (NOT Lincoln) blue oval on his key and asked what he drove. "A Ford F-150" was his reply. Finally, when I was lunching with one of my best friends, who is an entertainer and performs all over the world, he mentioned that he planned to purchase a yacht and a new car. When I asked what kind of car, he replied "A Hyundai Tucson".

Not all wealthy people have the desire to spend lots of money simply to impress others. Many regard needless spending as silly. I am told that one of America's wealthiest men lives in the same modest home he has lived in for decades.

It is becoming harder to "pigeon-hole" people based on their appearance, profession or income level. The U.S. is a very diverse country. The teenager delivering pizza to us drives a Mercedes CLK. The world-traveling heart specialist down the street drives an F-150.

11:56's comments have been my experience too. Wealthy people do not get where they are by throwing money away, or concerning themselves with exhibitions of wealth like fancy cars or expensive houses. Many of the people I know with these types of things do not really own them anyway. They are all financed/mortgaged to the hilt and sadly having a really tough time paying for them. A large portion of the homes in my county are empty (repossessed) and/or unfinished mcmansions. I don't know what is going to be done with them. Maybe they will be torn down and replaced by more realistic homes like I grew up in (and still live in now) and people used to be perfectly satisfied to live in?

But you had to be as blind to not see this horrible situation coming. It was so frustrating to see it happening and have our politicians be completely clueless. Now they want to continue the same policies (creating and spending money we don't have) that got us there in the first place. I think eight years of unmitigated neocon rule and now the socialist pork bill that Obama just signed might be the final nail in the coffin for our country. I think I will be living a much more simple life and turning to God (as I should have been doing all along) from here on out.

"I think eight years of unmitigated neocon rule and now the socialist pork bill that Obama just signed might be the final nail in the coffin for our country. I think I will be living a much more simple life and turning to God (as I should have been doing all along) from here on out."

That might be true if that were actually the case. The reason we are in the situation we're in is because for close to 30 years - yes that means as far back as Reagan - the largest lobbies in Washington are ALL either real estate, investment banking, or mortgage related lobbies whom are the biggest contributors to political campaigns. That includes both parties, Presidents, Senators, Congressmen, and so on. Untold hundreds of millions of dollars per year from real estate and mortgage industries alone. All in an effective effort to get politicians to look the other way as these industries became more and more deregulated and chaotic.

Turning to God is fine. But turning to Politicians and getting them to stop accepting outright bribes from corporations and industrial groups is the way to fix this problem.

And then there are car enthusiasts who buy the cars of their dreams after their home is paid for, and their children's educational needs are addressed.

I also did not take out car loans, I flipped a property.

It's not to impress, but to really enjoy from working smart.

I heard the number one credit card from millionaires is a Sears card. The only issue I had with the Walmart comment was that only new domestic buyers with zillions of kids and drink Bud shop there. I agree that's off base. I could care less who and where I shop or who sees what I drive. But I like driving great handling cars. Boring, uninspired appliance new vehicles are fine as basic transportation, but we love driving and can afford without a loan.

"Wealthy people do not get where they are by throwing money away, or concerning themselves with exhibitions of wealth like fancy cars or expensive houses."

I agree. From what I have observed, the people who earned the money drive sensible cars. Fancy cars are driven by people who inherited the money, or just got the cars on credit and don't really have the money.

I am kind of having an interesting time watching the automobiles of my nice neighbors two blocks away that last year tore down a $500,000 house and spent $2,500,000 building a nice house so they could be next door to their elderly mother and father. You know they don't care about the fact their house will never be valued anywhere near what they spent building it since it is so much more expensive than any house within a half-mile radius of them.

They own one of the biggest construction firms in our small state, and I see their names in the paper on the lists of contributors to miscellaneous elected officials in dollar amounts that would buy most of us a nice new car. I think they drive what they like and don't care what people think about it. What I see in their compound are some sensible cars for weekdays. I see a Sable, a Civic, a Focus, an Acura TL, some kind of big Buick SUV, a C class Mercedes and a Mercedes SLK. There are a couple of other cars I can't remember. But then sometimes on weekends when the garage doors are open, we see a Ferrari, a Maserati, and a Lamborghini. It kind of makes me wonder what I would drive if money truly were no object.

I mentioned this on another review. I live in Delaware and know a family with a Ford Ranchero wagon in the garage. It's not their only car, but it is still registered. But they also own 6 airplanes. Cannot go by what people drive or dress. It's likely more relaxing when going out with less security issues and/or unwanted attention.

But we recently had individuals paying very high six figures for low # active De. registration tag #'s for the back of their cars. The last was $675,000. Just for an active low # tag before buying a car as De. is a small state with an affinity for # tags. And the tags appreciate. I have had my low tag for 3 generations and it has appreciated greatly. It was on my grandfathers car first. Whatever makes money, if you have it to invest where it counts.

"That might be true if that were actually the case. The reason we are in the situation we're in is because for close to 30 years - yes that means as far back as Reagan - the largest lobbies in Washington are ALL either real estate, investment banking, or mortgage related lobbies whom are the biggest contributors to political campaigns. That includes both parties, Presidents, Senators, Congressmen, and so on. Untold hundreds of millions of dollars per year from real estate and mortgage industries alone. All in an effective effort to get politicians to look the other way as these industries became more and more deregulated and chaotic."

This is one of the most concise and best summations I have seen of our current economic mess. And with regard to our auto industry, it has not been just a case of people being manipulated by ad hype from Japanese companies. If the U.S. had universal health care (like all other civilized countries do) our auto makers would not be in the mess they are in. They have to pay BILLIONS in health care for current and retired employees, cutting deeply into operating expenses and profits. The U.S. is the only civilized nation on Earth that sits idly by and allows our poor, elderly and children to die for lack of medical care. It's ironic that the current bailout would have paid for healthcare for every man, woman and child in the U.S. Maybe someday we'll grow up as a nation if we don't go bankrupt first.