2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

Over 900 off topic comments so far. I am quite impressed with hearing 0-60 times with the Camry on a full size truck review. My sons Viper goes 0-60 slightly under 4 seconds... 1st gear up to 60 with 5 gears left. Sounds impressive until you realize it has perhaps zero interest on a late model full size truck review.

After test driving the new Tundra, if anyone is interested, I found a better value and capability with GM Silverado. The handling, ride, load carrying, people carrying, towing and far superior warranty sold us. If anyone else has a full size truck and has tested/owned anything remotely equivalent I have interest in full size truck comments. Maybe that is why I hope to read comments on this review to keep abreast of full size new truck developments. Alas I suspect I am one of few that own a full size truck on here and keep hoping to see some full size truck comparisons updates not Camrys, health care plans, political science lectures and the like.

Taking a wild guess, I would say 4 people have a full size truck out of over 900 comments... my guess but I would feel pretty confident that it is quite accurate.

"I don't expect this to be printed but, to whomever is reading this, you should consider the possibility that this site's approach to commentary isn't even-handed."

I have corresponded with Steven, and have had my OWN comments censored. I feel that every effort is made to keep the comments non-inflammatory and that does require some censoring. Import fans frequently use "crap" to describe cars many Americans feel very strongly about. That is offensive to those of us who support the American auto industry and prefer domestic vehicles. To accuse Steven of being biased because he refuses to allow abusive comments about other posters is not called for. I appreciate very much that he allows wide-ranging (but relevant) comments, and I staunchly support his right to edit any comments (MINE as well) that might come across as offensive.

"I staunchly support his right to edit any comments (MINE as well) that might come across as offensive."

I do as well but you can imagine how frustrating it is to respond to comments that question my statements when the commenters aren't even aware that MY comment was meant to be primarily self-discrediting. I was mixing unsupported truth, hyperbole, fabrication, partial-truth, and the deliberate misconstruing of others comments to shame these tactics' use.

But I yield to his right to edit. My comment may, indeed, have been too inflammatory. However, in this case, I would have preferred that the WHOLE comment be deleted. But that's a tough call for an editor to make, so I take responsibility for my own "pre-editing" failure.

Well, let's get back to the point then... look at the original review again - "No more GM". That says enough for me. Apparently, this person, like many hundreds of thousands of others, has had enough with crappy GM products. He has switched to Toyota and is happy about that, as is every other person I have ever spoken to that previously owned "domestics". I am part of this group. After owning three Toyota's, you'd have to give me a Chevy, Ford, or Dodge if I'm ever to drive one again. If I'm paying for it myself, it'll be a Toyota, because they run better, smoother, last longer, break down less, and are worth more on trade in because they're built well enough to hold their value. Period.

Why not a detailed comparison on new Tundras and the competition... size, capability, warranty, room, handling etc.

I think this argument is based on historical performance, expectations, and facts.

I myself am a perfect example of what happens when a company such as GM, Ford, and Chrysler spend decades ignoring the importance of fit, finish, and overall quality. I am 32 years old. When I was a kid, Mom had a 78' Malibu. Dad drove a Oldsmobile Delta 88. Later Dad had a Buick Riviera. The problem was that all three of these cars were jalopies. I specifically recall Dad cussing almost every time we took the Buick out to the store since something was perpetually broke. I have memories of spending many Saturdays in dealership waiting rooms while the Buick, Malibu, or Delta 88 had some other issue repaired.

Then Dad bought the company car, a 2 year old 85' Camry. We kept it for almost 10 years before buying another Camry. It never had a problem, which to us was simply amazing. That was followed by a steady stream of other Toyotas: a Toyota truck, 4runner, Avalon, and now a Tundra. NONE - and I mean none of these have had anything other than routine maintenance, and trust me - my parents are not the best at remembering to do things like change the oil and so forth.

So there's the reason for the bias. Perhaps today's bias is undeserved and American cars are now as good as Japanese brands - specifically the Big Three Japanese brands. But cars and trucks are expensive, and if you have distinct memories of how bad American cars were in the 70's and 80's (don't deny it - they were AWFUL back then) then would you be willing to make a possible $20,000 mistake in today's economy? As you can see, GM, Ford, and Chrysler made some bad mistakes that haunt them to this very day.

In regards to these comments:

"The Tacoma has exactly the SAME reliability rating as the Ford Ranger, which is less expensive and comes with a better warranty."

My brother owned a Ranger. I say owned because the transmission gave up at 160k. I still have my Tacoma of the same vintage, still going at 220,000 miles. No need to say more.

"I don't understand how people who are supposedly car-literate keep confusing the Aveo with GM-built cars. The Aveo is Korean. It is basically a mechanical twin under the sheet metal to the Hyundai Accent. I have driven the Aveo and found it to be an incredibly smooth and good riding car for a sub-compact. The ride is better than that of the Accent. Friends who own Aveos and follow the recommended maintenance procedures have had no trouble with theirs, though the highest mileage any of them has on theirs is just over 98,000 miles."

You'd be surprised. Many I've read here suddenly like the Aveo just because it has a Chevy badge stuck to the front. But the cars are abysmal excuses of engineering. These are NOT rated very highly at all. I personally rented one in Hawaii, hated the ride and comfort so much that I returned it 2 hours later and upgraded. You couldn't pay me to own that car. It's an embarrassment and GM needs to yank the plug on it.

20:40 Toyota what? GM what? How many were Tundras, Silverados or are we on a car or small truck comment? That is exactly what the problem is with generalization of a manufacturer...

What year Tundras, Silverados did you own? There's 3 involved. How was the towing, load carrying and other capabilities of your Tundra vs. Silverado? And warranty.

In the 70-80's I owned new what I consider the real Japan imports, however today you rarely see them. I liked the 70's not 80's Celica GT's and also the Datsun 240Z and later up to the 280ZX, but where are they today? Perhaps victims of chronic rusting, heavy oil consumption or depreciating and mechanical issues to the point of not having enough value.

I agree the smog/pollution devices that became mandatory created issues in the mid 70's domestics... prior to 72 it was extremely easy to work and maintain your own vehicles. My dad had cars I would love to have today and they were very reliable. He stepped up not sold out of disappointment. A lot of people were foolhardy in hindsight, trading in some really great classic cars during the long mid 70's gas lines and odd and even days when you could only buy gas. Quite a few of my friends have regretted going for the gas savers, but who wanted a Hemi Cuda with no gas for it?

I see the same issue a year back people buying small again over gas. Panic buying and they could have a much more pleasurable driving vehicle with less issues down the road.

The term jalopy I heard years ago on race tracks, not necessarily all negative, and can be a street rod today. I would use the term "clunker" or rust bucket as many of my early imports were. If you haven't been in a late model model street rod, you may be surprised how nice they are. Nice drivetrains, automatic, all power amenities, retro ice cold air conditioning etc. How much money would you dump into a well worn out 79 Corolla and do a complete restoration? I will watch Barrett Jackson and see if any roll through soon to confirm.

"But cars and trucks are expensive, and if you have distinct memories of how bad American cars were in the 70's and 80's (don't deny it - they were AWFUL back then) then would you be willing to make a possible $20,000 mistake in today's economy? As you can see, GM, Ford, and Chrysler made some bad mistakes that haunt them to this very day."

I will certainly deny that American cars of the 70's and 80's were "AWFUL". In fact, it was not until 2003 that I finally started seeing new cars that were AS GOOD as the Chargers we had. Examples I have owned?

1971 Dodge Charger (owned 1971-1975) -- dependable, stylish, comfortable

1971 Plymouth Barracuda (owned 1987-present) -- fast, stylish, totally dependable

1973 Dodge Charger (owned 1987-present) -- comfortable, totally dependable, good mileage

1974 Dodge Monaco (owned 1982-1989) -- comfortable, a work-horse, ran and drove great.

1975 Dodge Charger (owned 1975-present) -- totally dependable, very comfortable

1975 Chevy Vega (owned 1984-1986) -- junk

1976 Plymouth Volare (owned 1984-1992) -- totally dependable, ran great, good mileage.

1977 Dodge Tradesman (owned 1986-1998) -- drove great, work-horse

1977 Chevy Vega (owned 1982) --junk

1979 Plymouth Volare (owned 1987-1995) -- totally dependable, ran great

1980 Plymouth Volare (owned 1988-1990) -- totally dependable, ran great

1983 Chevy Cavalier (owned 1988-1995) -- dependable, good mileage but a puddle jumper

1984 Plymouth Reliant (owned 1995-2001) -- totally dependable, good mileage, good ride

1985 Dodge Ram (owned 1996-2007) -- very rugged and durable (260,000 miles speaks for itself)

1989 Chevy 20 Van (owned 1998-2006) -- totally dependable, very comfortable, drove and ran great

1989 Pontiac 6000LE (owned 1998-2005) -- ran great, dependable, good mileage, but a beater.

As you can see, I'm not trying to paint a perfect picture. Our Dodges and Plymouths of the '70s and '80 were great, but the economy GMs were junky to borderline junky, albeit dependable.

But things change -- Chrysler went from building great cars in the '70s to good economy cars in the '80s, to boring with poor quality in the '90s to '00s. However, they are finally building cars that I would give a chance to again --- the Caliber, Charger, 300, Challenger, Avenger. Ford went the other way --- I had a low opinion of them in the '70s and '80s, but by the late '90s and early '00s we were very happy to buy Fords (a '97 and '02).

I would not be afraid to spend $20,000 on a new Dodge or Ford. In fact, we just did spend that on a year-old Cadillac DTS.

-- "No more GM". That says enough for me. Apparently, this person, like many hundreds of thousands of others, has had enough with crappy GM products (your opinion). He has switched to Toyota... --

Yes, I see some people switching to Toyota as well. People switch car brands all the time.

But, in the case of people switching to Toyota, it is my observation that often times these people owned a domestic and had many trouble free years of driving it, before the most minor and routine of problems cropped up at 150K+ miles or so, whereafter buying into all of the sensational hype associated with Toyota, they resolutely purchased one thinking that Toyota's were the Ark of the Covenant, all their car troubles would be over for the rest of their lives by virtue of them buying one, a rainbow would appear in the sky every time they went to drive the car, etc. But to their amazement, their brand new Toyota's which they whole heartedly believed were going to be beyond reproach, do not have minor problems, but completely self destructed in stupendous fashion within just a few years of purchase.

I am talking about catastrophic problems such as these:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html

Taken aback by the unimaginable severity of problems with their Toyota's, these people finally realized that all of their perceptions about Toyota had been based upon an erroneous myth. Many of these people subsequently switched to/back-to GM (and in some cases Ford), have no more car problems at all and have not looked back.

While what you say might have been true in the past, I actually see the exact opposite occurring now. I see a lot more people switching to GM than I do Toyota, and those that I do see switching to Toyota, soon end up dropping them (Toyota) because of all the problems.

"I actually see the exact opposite occurring now. I see a lot more people switching to GM than I do Toyota, and those that I do see switching to Toyota, soon end up dropping them (Toyota) because of all the problems."

Then I'm not sure where you live because out here in Cali, I've yet to meet a single person who has switched to GM from Toyota, and especially not when GM has several toes in bankruptcy.

This thread is never going to end. You pro-domestic people need to give it up. People who drive Toyotas have zero reasons to switch when what they drive is typically better and more reliable. And for the pro-Toyota crowd, it wouldn't matter if a pro-domestic guy has had 5 Ford Tauruses in a row blow their head gaskets. They'll swear by their clunkers until none of them are in business anymore.

"But things change -- Chrysler went from building great cars in the '70s to good economy cars in the '80s, to boring with poor quality in the '90s to '00s. However, they are finally building cars that I would give a chance to again --- the Caliber, Charger, 300, Challenger, Avenger. Ford went the other way --- I had a low opinion of them in the '70s and '80s, but by the late '90s and early '00s we were very happy to buy Fords (a '97 and '02)."

I tend to agree with your comment, except that my 1990 Dodge Omni was one of the most reliable vehicles we ever owned. It made 240,000+ miles with two timing belts, two brake jobs and one heater hose and NOTHING else beyond normal maintenance. I test drove several Calibers, but was not sure about the reliability of the CVT belts. My nephew has a new Charger (240hp V-6) and it is a very nice car, though a far cry from the original Chargers in sportiness.

Ford has been building some of the best cars on the planet. We own a Fusion and a Mustang. Both are flawless. We also own 2 GM vehicles and they are also both flawless. I can't conceive of calling ANY new domestic vehicle "crap". The name is hardly appropriate.

"What year Tundras, Silverados did you own? There's 3 involved. How was the towing, load carrying and other capabilities of your Tundra vs. Silverado? And warranty."

I bought a 2000 Tundra SR5 with 38000 miles on it. It was a good *light duty* truck. I towed my 31' Airstream with it. Loaded it weighed close to 7000 lbs. I would suggest that others who do this put LT tires and overload leaf springs, because this is very close to the maximum weight limit for these early Tundras.

I also built a house and used this truck to haul building materials. I've put a ton+ in the back. I was careful because this was well over its payload capacity, and the axle was bouncing off the snubbers when I went over bumps. It did fine, though. It still was straight and true after my project.

At the time this truck was built it was a little lighter duty than 1/2 ton Silverados and F150s. But it served my needs well. I sold it last year.

Warranty-wise it was already out of the bumper-to-bumper when I bought it but I think that there was still a powertrain warranty until 60,000 (I could be wrong about that... set me straight -- I can't remember for sure). I never used the warranty.

At that time I knew plenty of guys who owned and were happy with their domestic trucks. But if you need a lighter-duty truck a first generation Tundra may work out for you.

If you need something heavier, I would suggest a domestic. The new Tundras aren't proven and have had a few disturbing "teething problems". My personal taste runs toward the F150, but the Silverado has better capacities and has also proven reliable. If you want a smoother ride, the Dodge Ram isn't as tough, but has coils in back make for a good riding and handling vehicle.

Everyone's needs and tastes vary. Plus some people feel that there is a strong economic and/or patriotic reason to purchase domestically. So, for them, there isn't any reason to even consider any non-domestic --- regardless of capability. Thankfully there are some very fine choices among the domestics that would likely serve their needs well.

Maybe you should move from California to the Northeast as I see the complete opposite. Few Tundras.

If you like a Tacoma and have had some other Toyotas since, fine... but that does not make one an absolute authority on late model domestic full size pickups in the 16 years since you owned one.

I have never had a head gasket issue on my new GM Silverados... I drive a lot and love mine. I actually carry loads and tow. What do you carry, what do you pull and how is the warranty on your new truck? (whatever size it may be)

This is a full size truck review. I do not own Taurus or Aveos... I like GM V8 engines and have had zero drivetrain issues.

It gets funnier and funnier. People are switching from Toyota to GM. Yeah, right. Well, I can tell you what's happening in my little town... the Ford dealership looks like a graveyard. And that's sad, because they're the best of the domestics right now, which still isn't very good.

The Dodge dealership closed completely and is now a Honda dealership. Business is good now that people can buy Honda's there instead of crappy Dodges.

Dodge is the absolute worst of the worst. The lowest reliability ratings on the market. Their whole lineup is a joke. Especially the cars.

The second largest Dodge dealership near me also closed it's doors. Meanwhile, a Hyundai dealership opened up directly across the highway and is doing great. I should know; I bought an Accent there last year. They had 6 of them when I shopped, and 2 days later when I had made my decision, there was ONE left, and I bought it.

Meanwhile, the GM dealership also looks like a graveyard and appears, to me, to be on their way out. They've had the same 8 trucks parked near the street for about a year. Nothing moves. Meanwhile, the Toyota dealership bought the entire shopping plaza next to them and has overflowed into two full blocks.

I don't know where all these people are that are giving up reliable Toyota's for junk GM's, but it surely isn't anywhere close to where I live.