2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

"Taken aback by the unimaginable severity of problems with their Toyota's, these people finally realized that all of their perceptions about Toyota had been based upon an erroneous myth."

Here we go again with the perpetual post linking to the same site "proving" how bad Toyotas are, despite the fact that every single major publication and survey shows them above and beyond the ratings of all three US producers.

Secondly, if people want "proof" in regards to the quality of US produced vehicles, all they have to do is read this site because virtually every other review for Fords, GM, and Chryslers are negative and rife with ridiculous mechanical issues.

In regard to the following comment:

"This thread is never going to end. You pro-domestic people need to give it up. People who drive Toyotas have zero reasons to switch when what they drive is typically better and more reliable. And for the pro-Toyota crowd, it wouldn't matter if a pro-domestic guy has had 5 Ford Tauruses in a row blow their head gaskets. They'll swear by their clunkers until none of them are in business anymore."

The comment is correct about one thing - This thread won't end (unless Steven puts an end to it). But in my opinion it goes on and on because there are so many people who think that their opinion is the only one that's correct and it doesn't matter what anybody else's experience is. To them there is just black or white, no gray. It's funny that people can't just come to the conclusion that there are good (and some not so good) domestics and good (and and some not so good) imports.

There are you know.

It really does depend on what your needs and preferences are. I don't think anyone is 100% right or 100% wrong.

The sad part about many of the anti-American comments on this site is that so many people are unaware of the dire consequences of destroying an industry that employs roughly 1 out of every 14 people in this country either directly or indirectly. It is also irritating to see comment after comment that is purely opinion with no sources cited. There are so many reputable sources available that clearly refute the "everything American is crap" argument.

For years now the Ford Ranger has had a reliability rating EXACTLY the SAME as the Toyota Tacoma. This is a fact. It is not a matter of opinion. The same is true of almost ALL of Ford's line of vehicles. USA today just ran a review of the new Ford Focus coupe. It said "Ford got it ALL right". This is from a reviewer that always tells it like it is and has had no qualms about attacking our automotive "sacred cows" such as Mercedes. The F-150 STILL outsells every other truck in the world. It is also "truck of the Year" (again).

GM is currently building some of the world's best cars and trucks. The Corvette outperforms cars costing twice as much, and does it with comfort and style. The Cadillac CTS-V is the fastest sedan on the planet and puts BMW and Mercedes to shame. The Silverado is one of the best trucks ever made. The ride, interior comfort level and handling are extremely good compared to the Tundra.

It is easy to say "Fords are crap" or "GM builds crap". It requires no effort, no research, and no hint of an open mind. It is based solely on opinion, and that often based on a bad experience with ONE vehicle out of millions. To make an informed judgment of vehicles, one needs to own more than one Ford with 200,000 miles on it, or one Toyota. Out of over 80 vehicles owned by both me and my siblings and other family members over the years, I have never seen ANY of the issues constantly attributed to domestics. No transmissions replaced, no blown head gaskets, no engine failures. We've owned imports, including Toyota. They were not any better than any of the domestics.

Would I buy another Toyota? Absolutely not. I care too much about my country and our dire economic situation to send money to foreign industries. I'd have no qualms about buying a USED import from a DOMESTIC dealer, because that DOES benefit our economy. The problem with that is that used imports are very poor values compared to used domestics. Why buy a Camry that is rated as "average" when I can buy a Fusion that is rated "much better than average" for 7 grand less? That makes little sense financially.

As long as I make my money in America, I feel obligated to support our industry. Yes, that is a matter of opinion and choice. So is sending our money out of the country and contributing to our growing unemployment and the suffering of our fellow citizens.

"10th Mar 2009, 21:24

Dodge is the absolute worst of the worst. The lowest reliability ratings on the market. Their whole lineup is a joke. Especially the cars."

I actually am seeing a lot of Avengers, Calibers, and Chargers on the roads. The former two seem to fill a niche for a lot of people.

As for "reliability ratings" well, you have to take those with a grain of salt. My family has owned quite a few used cars with only "2 out of 5 stars" that have gone over 200,000 miles with minor to no issues. Maybe we just take better care of our vehicles, and avoid having break-downs, who knows? My personal experience trumps some rating system, and I'll buy what suits me.

Has the Toyota Tundra sold a lot more last year and displaced all other new full size truck sales? With all the fanfare on this thread they should be standing in line waiting.

The thing that gets me is someone that owns a Tacoma comparing it to Tundra and other larger trucks and not even a late model illustration. I can say my dad has great cars, but he hardly drives them and changes the fluids every 4 months with low retired mileage. I drive, tow heavily and rack up the mileage and have personal first hand ownership and testing others (full sizes) I was unimpressed with Tundra... cover the nameplate up I was still unimpressed.

The sales history of this model compared to full size pickups illustrate this... please no Yaris, Prius, Aveo etc. What is the point... It's not the category exact to the review and at least be within the same decade.

10:48 Your opinions are yours, but your facts are wrong. Your using a technique of propaganda to try and sell Fords by singling out a SINGLE Ford that has a decent reliability rating. Learned how to dodge those attempts in 6th grade.

Ford does NOT have most of their vehicles rated anywhere close the the marks in quality and reliability that Toyota gets. They are rated far UNDER Toyota, with the exception of one or two models, which you domestic fans love to keep mentioning. A couple of decent models will not save them, and they are not rated as, nor are they a match for Toyota or their quality. The rest of your OPINIONS, you're welcome to mention all you like.

"Here we go again with the perpetual post linking to the same site "proving" how bad Toyotas are, despite the fact that every single major publication and survey shows them above and beyond the ratings of all three US producers."

I assume you are talking about this site:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html

Maybe it keeps getting posted because somebody has yet to explain why Toyota's are blowing engines in epidemic numbers at less than 50,000 miles. Maybe it is because people keep proclaiming that Toyota's are so impeccable, and anybody else who thinks otherwise is wrong, when in fact it cannot be denied that Toyota's are having serious problems and people do not want to admit it. That includes the auto publications you cite.

Do you believe Fox News or CNN? Do you agree with the New York Times or the Washington Times? Do you agree with National Review or Time Magazine. All of these are major news sources, but I take it you and most people would disagree with one or the other of the pairs of sources I listed. Disagree with one of each or do not agree with one of them. There goes your argument that just because something appears in the news it has to be correct.

If you do not like the Consumer Affairs site constantly being listed, then explain why Toyota is having all those engine failures and we can put the issue to bed. Don't tell me those types of issues are routine or due to lack of maintenance either, because if that were the case, all manufacturers would be having those problems. They are not. Only Toyota, the company that could very legitimately be considered the worst car company on the road presently.

21:24 which new lot is the Tundra lot? Or is it full of Yaris and Prius models? Is this something you are proud about? I could see if you lived in Japan and had the profits returned there.

"The sad part about many of the anti-American comments on this site is that so many people are unaware of the dire consequences of..."

Having the ability to make an informed decision and have free choices is NOT anti-American. Sorry. I keep reading these same sort of posts over and over again, and truth be known, what I buy has nothing to do with my patriotism or anyone else's.

One thing is crystal-clear: the US has an evolving economy that continuously changes in regards to its primary industries. For example, I work as a graphic designer. 99% of what I design for goes online. 20 years ago 99% of it would have been printed on paper. As such, there has been a gradual decline in print production and as seen in the news, many newspapers are going out of business. But the news isn't stopping, but rather changing formats. Had I been working on one of those printing presses, I would have to make an important decisions: Either stay with a concept that was going obsolete or make motions to learn the current technology. I've personally changed careers three times, and I'm only 32. The world demands rapid change.

I use that analogy because in order to succeed, one must be flexible and willing to change careers, jobs, and learn new skills. Perhaps 50 years ago someone could work in the same GM plant doing the same remedial task, year in, year out and retire to the suburbs. That world no longer exists, and the auto worker, just like everyone else must learn to be adaptive and flexible.

As can be seen, the leanest, most efficient, and most respected companies survive in a modern economy. Regardless of what side of the fence you reside, you cannot deny the fact that GM, Ford, and Chrysler have not done a good job of adapting to change. They produced inferior products for decades until Japanese automakers introduced better built cars. They were slow to react, and even though I admit that they have made some solid gains in recent years, their action is too little too late, and not enough to persuade a skeptical consumer all too wary of their products.

You see, in the end it isn't about patriotism. It's about choice, and that choice is what makes the US economy what it is - a consumer driven economy. GM, Ford, and Chrysler have not transitioned into that economy. Perhaps they will. But in the meantime, don't call someone who made a conscious decision anti-American because that's totally inaccurate.

"If you do not like the Consumer Affairs site constantly being listed, then explain why Toyota is having all those engine failures and we can put the issue to bed."

I've posted about this before. The curious thing is that Consumer Affairs is so different from sites and sources that do actual surveys. It's interesting that they accept advertising. It's notable that it isn't a scientific survey but rather replaces all of the controls imposed by an attempt at impartiality with anecdote -- which is fine, but it tells you nothing about what percentage of vehicles are having a given problem. It's also odd that there is so few complaints about other vehicles... some have had quite a few issues of their own, yet there is very little commentary about them. The site also refers to the Tundra as ugly -- an odd pejorative for a site claiming independence.

Lastly it has a strong emphasis on litigation -- that's part of the reason they present for pressing the "complaint button". I pressed the button to see what info they might want and found that there was no info that could be used to check if an individual actually owned the vehicle at all (like registration #). All of these things can skew results.

That doesn't make them wrong. Or biased. But it should lead you to question what's up.

So explain that to say a 50 year old with a Masters Degree that was downsized and cannot find a job today. It's also called age discrimination... I know some auto workers that have retired and are working elsewhere for pension # 2, and one is actually going for a 3rd retirement pension in time. Not all have been job hoppers. I would have not had an issue remaining with the largest corporation in the world in business for 100 years. I guess we can fault the newspapers for their low quality next.

I would love to have a brand new Challenger (not the current automatic) anytime vs. say a Corolla or Camry as an alternative. Maybe when I am 75 I may change that viewpoint.

"You see, in the end it isn't about patriotism. It's about choice, and that choice is what makes the US economy what it is - a consumer driven economy. GM, Ford, and Chrysler have not transitioned into that economy. Perhaps they will. But in the meantime, don't call someone who made a conscious decision anti-American because that's totally inaccurate."

OK, let's say it ISN'T about patriotism. Let's say it's about WORLD economics. Are you aware that right now even the "can do no wrong" Japanese car makers are up against the wall because numerous companies that build various items THEY use are being affected by the slow sales of the Big Three? (USA Today, March 12, 2009) If we bury our heads in the sand long enough we can convince ourselves of anything. Of course by the time it becomes obvious that supporting U.S. auto makers effects the WORLD's economy it will be too late to salvage ANYONE'S auto industry. Enjoy your bicycles.

"Do you believe Fox News or CNN? Do you agree with the New York Times or the Washington Times? Do you agree with National Review or Time Magazine. All of these are major news sources, but I take it you and most people would disagree with one or the other of the pairs of sources I listed. Disagree with one of each or do not agree with one of them. There goes your argument that just because something appears in the news it has to be correct."

Very good comment. No source that I have read that deals with automotive news says Toyota is better overall than Ford in RELIABILITY. Just the contrary. Yes, you can find magazines and other sources that refer to domestic vehicles as "less sophisticated". People somehow interpret that as "less reliable". Definitely not so. "Sophisticated" means more gadgets and more opportunities for malfunctions. An excellent example of this is BMW's horribly complicated "I-Drive" system. A USA Today reviewer said in his review a couple of years ago that it would probably relegate this "sophisticated" car that ALL the car magazines love to the "Used cars to avoid list".

Another point: Both Mercedes and BMW are touted as "sophisticated, refined and benchmarks of quality". If you check their actual RELIABILITY ratings, many models are worse than the very worst of Fords. When car magazines spend their couple of hours with a vehicle they are impressed with only two things: will it do 0-60 in under 5 seconds, and how many little nifty buttons it has for electronic gadgetry. They actually care very little about ride (anything comfortable is called "sloppy handling") and there is NO WAY they can remotely make ANY decisions about reliability. I also feel there is a VERY strong built-in bias against anything made by the U.S. on the part of ALL automotive magazines. One has to be careful in how they read too much into a glowing review of a car that indicates NOTHING about how LONG the car will run.

Comment 11:18 makes a very good point as well. We have also owned numerous cars that had "worse than average" or "much worse than average" reliability ratings. Not a one of them ever had a single mechanical problem. I can't say it is because we took better care of them either. We took exactly the same care of our imports and they were all lemons.

All this is interesting, but it boils down to what your opinion of your new full size truck was purchased for. I am going to the new boat show this weekend and that's why I bought a new truck (for towing mostly).

Maybe some of you read newpapers, Consumer magazines while parked in the full size cab or are catching the final moments of Analog TV in your new full size trucks watching CNN. I carry my family, utilize the bed and tow. I personally examined the handling characteristics, room, comfort, capability and warranty. Maybe besides the initial commenter and myself are we the only full size truck owners on this thread? It seems full of Aveo, Taurus, Prius, Tacoma owners on a full size truck review. I have learned more about the small vehicles then on full size trucks. I do not sit in a parked cab reading stacks of newspapers, magazines and watching TV, I get out there and test and evaluate all my requirements directly. My truck performs and works, has a far superior warranty then Tundra as well. I have not had issues and I had far too many on my late model imports.

If I went on the Ferrari review and commented on trucks, it would probably not enlighten them to any degree as well. How about some new full size truck actual coverage direct comments/comparisons by some other full size owners on here?

I always read the USA Today car reviews, as they are not on anyone's payroll other than USA Today, and don't accept money from lobbyists for any of the auto makers. For that reason I feel they are very objective.

I loved today's review on the new 5-door Yaris. It was entitled "Yaris adds 2 doors but still comes up short". It referred to the Ford Focus as "roomier, sweet to drive and has a more upmarket feel".

In the realm of full-size trucks, the Tundra can't touch the reliability, quality or value of the Ford F-150. How anyone who remains current on things automotive can continue to refer to any domestic vehicle as "crap" is incredible.