2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

21:04 Well, since our country IS in financial distress, and many of us feel it in our wallets personally, you'll have to excuse me for owning Toyota's because I know they're the most reliable and will cost me the least to own.

I have owned more than one of each of the Big 3's vehicles, and without a lot of money to spare, I'll proudly (and intelligently) buy and drive a vehicle that is made well enough that I won't have to dump my hard earned money into it to keep it running like I did with my Fords, GM's, and Dodges.

I LOVE these high mileage stories from domestic owners. GOTTA love em. Not only did they keep ALL 22 domestics they owned for 200,000 miles, none of them EVER needed repaired. Yeah, sure. The math doesn't even normally work out, which is what is the most funny. If you put on 20,000 miles a year, which is far above average, it'll take you TEN years to put on 200,000 miles. But all the Ford and Chevy owners on here seem to have done this with somewhere between 10 and 30 different domestic automobiles.

Yes, the Crown Vic and its Mercury stablemate are among the best cars on the planet. And of course no sane police department would use a Toyota or Honda. Drivers would laugh so hard they'd crash. No front drive car is really competent as a police pursuit vehicle (though some Impalas are used). Most all of the new police vehicles in our area now are Dodge Chargers. They have NO PROBLEM catching anyone. Now that Ford has dropped the Crown Vic, both the Dodge Charger and Pontiac G8 both seem very capable replacements.

All major sources (MSN, USA Today, Consumer Reports, J.D. Powers, Edmunds, and even the highly biased Car and Driver are now admitting that Ford has equaled Honda and surpassed Toyota in reliability. Of course I've known that for a VERY ling time. I've never seen a Toyota with half a million miles on it. That is not all that rare for Fords.

"GM and Chrysler really started building junk when they dropped their body-on-frame, RWD cars"

Don't the 300, Charger, and Challenger fit into that category?? I know I've seen dozens of Charger police interceptors. Minus the Crown Vic, Chrysler has been the company primarily responsible for the revival of the rear drive concept.

If the Japanese built body-on-frame rear wheel drive cars, it's doubtful that domestic governmental and quasi-governmental agencies would use them in any large numbers. In most areas there are enough people who feel that anything but domestic vehicles are unpatriotic that many governmental agencies don't include them in their fleets. Even county vehicles that don't get hard use are domestics.

In most of the places I've been police, fire, county, state, and federal vehicles are all domestics. Domestic manufacturers have offered pretty significant fleet discounts as well, so many rental fleets were domestically biased too.

These facts neither prove the value of domestics or imports. If you want to show that domestics are wonderful and imports are "junk", you'll have to do it some other way.

"We've owned Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Plymouth, Pontiac, GMC, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, Mazda and VW. Not a one of our Big Three vehicles ever had a problem, including many we drove over 200,000 miles. Not a single Japanese car made 100,000 miles without MANY repairs."

We've owned Hondas, a Nissan, a Toyota, a Jeep, a Ford, Chevies, a Pontiac, a Saturn, and a Buick. The worst two were a Chevy Citation and a Honda Civic. Both were purchased used and had been (apparently) abused by their previous owners. Everything else has been reliable... imports or domestics. That's just my experience. Others may have different experiences.

Several things seem to be happening on here.

#1 People have a certain set of experiences that they think are universal. That viewpoint is myopic and lacks circumspection.

#2 They have some bad vehicles and think that reflects on the products of an entire region, rather than just on the product in question.

#3 Anyone who has the gall to cast doubt on the universal nature of their assertions is labelled "biased" or "brainwashed".

#4 If independent research doesn't affirm their experience, "the research must be flawed". These have been true of both sides of this debate (at times) so far.

I buy vehicles, not companies. I buy vehicles, not regions. I buy vehicles, not countries. The fact that my vehicles have been reliable, doesn't serve to prove that ALL the vehicles from the region or country in which they were made are reliable. No reasonable person can make that claim since even the manufacturers admit that some of their products turn out less reliable than others.

Right now, there may be an economic reason for purchasing domestically. It may be lessened by your viewpoint of unions, management or product planning. But from a strictly selfish standpoint, you'll likely be worse off if these big manufacturers fail. I don't want to overplay this or call anyone "unpatriotic" if they buy something else. But just remember that each and every purchase DOES matter.

Today I'd likely buy domestic products.

The Crown Vic and Grand Marquis are dinosaurs. The only reason Ford still makes them is for police cars and cab drivers.

19th Mar 2009, 08:15

""GM and Chrysler really started building junk when they dropped their body-on-frame, RWD cars"

Don't the 300, Charger, and Challenger fit into that category??"

No they do not - they may be rear wheel drive, but they are not body on frame. Virtually everything is uni-body nowadays.

17:11.

I work extensively with intellectual property, am an engineer and registered United States Patent agent. Japanese companies have historically required US companies to license their intellectual properties to Japanese companies as a condition for them being sold in Japan. I am not talking about right after WWII either; I am talking primarily about electronic components in recent years, for instance the notorious Japanese TV monopoly of the 1980's that you might have heard of, which (no disrespect to the Japanese people) is a notorious example of the disreputable trade practices Japanese "companies," with the aid of the Japanese government, have become famous for.

The following article sums this and many other issues pertinent to this matter very well:

http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html

I personally do not know how any American could read the preceding article and buy another Japanese product.

I will grant the Japanese that they developed many innovative manufacturing processes, including effective quality control methods, that deserve complement. But major "technological" developments, no. There simply aren't any as far as I am aware.

"The Crown Vic and Grand Marquis are dinosaurs. The only reason Ford still makes them is for police cars and cab drivers."

Ford doesn't "still make them", which is a shame because they were some of the most solid, reliable vehicles ever built. Our local police agencies sell these cars to the public when they reach 200,000 miles, and most people who buy them are very pleased to get them.

Many older people prefer driving larger cars such as the Crown Vic because of the comfort and much greater safety of larger, heavier cars. Many of our older friends have bought new Crown Vics and driven them for many years. They are virtually trouble-free, though a bit heavy on fuel.

I suppose now the older car buyer looking for a solid and safe heavy rear drive sedan will be out of luck.

"If the Japanese built body-on-frame rear wheel drive cars, it's doubtful that domestic governmental and quasi-governmental agencies would use them in any large numbers. In most areas there are enough people who feel that anything but domestic vehicles are unpatriotic that many governmental agencies don't include them in their fleets. Even county vehicles that don't get hard use are domestics."

If any of our governmental agencies ever bought vehicles from a Japanese company, I'd be on the phone to my elected representatives the second I found out about it DEMANDING that my tax dollars go to OUR OWN INDUSTRY. That is NOT a matter of "patriotism", it is a matter of my very hard-earned tax dollars being spent to enrich industries in other countries. That is just poor business. The quickest way any of my congressmen or other elected representatives can lose my vote is by hurting American industry, especially at a time like this.

"The Crown Vic and Grand Marquis are dinosaurs. The only reason Ford still makes them is for police cars and cab drivers."

If you want a good laugh, go visit in Florida to see the land of the dinosaurs. Tons of retired old people and lots of them are driving around in Grand Marquis. My parents have one too. When I visit, I enjoy driving it. I can't really say what it is. They just handle nice, even though I know there are lots of better cars out there now.

I rented a brand new loaded Crown Vic with leather etc. and really liked it. High MPG and very easy to exceed the 70 mph speed limit. I got out after a 3 hour run and totally comfortable and relaxed afterwards.

As far as Toyota styling I am not seeing any real styling trend setters... maybe Prius? Hardly. It amazes me the fascination bland styling, weak warranty to get somehow enamored over.

If you are spending 40K plus, not uncommon on a nice domestic full size, I see #1 applications/function, #2 performance/handling, #3 toughness, #4 100,000 mile warranty, #5 pricing/cheapness.

It seems when someone says they have owned a Toyota, GM, Chrysler, Ford so what "model" not a mfr. only... what year were they, purchased new or used or totally beat, mileage when acquired. What full size truck model do you own? I own a new GM Silverado, the category of this review.

00:07 Half a million miles is NOT rare for a Ford. Right... Ford has surpassed Toyota and is equal to Honda in reliability... SURE.

Here's the news: Honda builds THE best engines on planet earth - period. And Ford HA! isn't even in the same galaxy when it comes to engine design, performance, quality, or reliability.

Honda's ONLY possible rival, the only other automaker anywhere that makes something even close, is Toyota. 25 and 30 year old Honda CRX's and Civics were (and ARE) getting a few to several hundred thousand miles on them regularly. Ford?!? has a recent history of building cars like the Contour and the Taurus, the Contour might be the best example... dead in the water at 70,000 miles generally with a blown up engine. Ford isn't, and for SURE wasn't in the last few decades, even in sight of Honda in the quality department. Don't know what else to say.

You know, raving about how good you think domestics are here on one single website isn't going to change the fact that the 'Big 3' are not big anymore, are BARELY surviving, and WOULD be bankrupt and non-existent if not for the government bailout; especially GM and Dodge. They'd be ancient history by now. Better choices came to the United States decades ago - they're called Toyota's and Honda's.

"The only reason Ford still makes them is for police cars and cab drivers."

Actually Ford DOESN'T still make them. I checked CR and Ford's own site. CR shows it as a discontinued model and Ford doesn't have it listed among its cars anymore. Maybe they still make a police version or something. But it doesn't look like there is still a consumer Crown Vic.

"I've never seen a Toyota with half a million miles on it."

I remember an article on the "million mile club". In it there were a number of 80s Toyota pickups (22R engine I think). I haven't mentioned it before because I can't remember where I read it. I just remember the article and the picture of a guy holding up his million mile sign when his odo ticked over the magical number.

Really, though, you could nurse many vehicles over half a million miles. The question is what engine are you on? Transmission? How many rebuilds?

That has been a forte of domestic trucks. They can be fixed or rebuilt relatively cheaply with the abundant availability of aftermarket, rebuilt, or junkyard parts. They have also been easier to work on in the past with many a shadetree mechanic able to do passable work on them. So parts are more abundant and cheaper. Those with the skill to work on them are also more available.

These facts make it more possible and reasonable to repair rather than replace an older domestic truck. It's not that they're built for a million miles of service, but they can be MADE to last that long. It is a real consideration for someone who wants, for whatever reason, to keep their truck a long, long time.

Newer imports are so complicated and have such high parts cost that it becomes uneconomical to continue to repair them (for my family this has happened at somewhere between 200,000 and 240,000 miles).

The engines in ours were still in good shape as far as oil use was concerned. Neither one used ANY. But both started to have problems with head gaskets and other odds and ends (like alternators and A/C for example). Nickels and dimes (by the hundreds) were required to keep them going. It simply became too expensive and troublesome to keep them on the road. If they had been easier to work on and the parts had been less expensive, they might still be on the road.

21:31: I like the VTEC engine Honda (not any Toyotas) but there is no full size truck, and I hate deplorable Honda transmission issues.

Toyota sold few full sizes before, and certainly not currently as compared to domestics.

Have you even drove any, or is it somehow car discussions over and over on a full size truck review?

There is no import that can accommodate my full size truck application (for towing). Think a Honda can be a full size, so why discuss here? And the Tundra is limited also.

Ignoring applications does not fit many of us that buy actually full size trucks and market share. Lousy warranty does not help either to make any change, even if it was a candidate for myself and many of my friends that have new full sizes beyond the Tundras range.