2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

"That is NOT a matter of "patriotism", it is a matter of my very hard-earned tax dollars being spent to enrich industries in other countries. That is just poor business."

Well, then why isn't there a major outcry about what brand of electronic equipment, etc. that governments are using? Your hard earned dollars are already enriching foreign industries. Your tax dollars are also being used to support foreign countries. That might just be poor business too. Why draw the line at cars only?

Furthermore (the lack of) "patriotism" was the idea (and word) brought up by yourself or someone else describing individuals who don't support American manufacturers. Then it was said that this lack of support (un-patriotism) was poor business... EXACTLY the same argument you made just now. So if this "poor business" practice is unpatriotic for individuals, it would be many times so for a government agency.

Using (presumably) your own argument, it's either "poor business" for both an individual and a government or "unpatriotic" for both. But the argument that it's one thing for the individual and completely different for the government lacks consistency. I was merely using the preferred word used by those who are making a similar claim to the one I referred to.

Otherwise, your comment furthers my point and provides an example of the belief structure to which I alluded.

I'm 19 and the very proud owner of a fully loaded 1998 Crown Victoria LX. Go ahead and drive all the Japanese junk you want, while I'm cruising around in a safer more reliable vehicle with a much classier-sounding name. Most people my age drive foreign trash, but I'm smarter than that.

"Newer imports are so complicated and have such high parts cost that it becomes uneconomical to continue to repair them (for my family this has happened at somewhere between 200,000 and 240,000 miles)."

But at the same time, domestic vehicles are just as complicated and in my opinion more difficult to repair. Good case in point is my brother's former truck, a Ford Ranger. On my Tacoma, there are four spark plugs with four spark plug wires, all inline on top of the block and within easy reach. It takes me maybe 5-10 minutes to change the plugs, wires, cap, and rotor. The distributor is even placed up front where I don't have to lean over. In fact, the water pump, alternator, oil fill and dip stick, belt idler pulleys and other regular maintenance items are all within easy reach, bolted or screwed on with a minimal amount of bolts, which are only 2 sizes (10 and 14 Metric). Additionally, all of the bolts are plated with corrosion resistant anodized coating making them easy to loosen since they don't seize with rust.

In comparison, my Brother's truck also had a 4 cylinder engine, but with 8 spark plugs mounted haphazardly on the engine block and in almost impossible to access locations. The whole engine bay was the same, which was that seemingly everything was just slapped in there with no regard for repairing or dismantling it. Doing even small tasks took forever. The wires and hoses were all over the place. The bolts were just painted steel and we broke many of them off trying to get them loose. The thing was a nightmare.

So the old-fashioned assumption that modern domestics are super-simple is an outright myth, and in fact the opposite is true.

"No they do not - they may be rear wheel drive, but they are not body on frame. Virtually everything is uni-body nowadays."

Thanks. I stand corrected. Why do you feel that uni-body is unreliable?

OK, one more time: If we are going to keep asserting that "Toyota is better" (or Honda either for that matter) we ought to be able to supply data to support it. Well, here is the latest data (from USA Today, March 20,2009). The latest long-term reliability studies by J.D. Powers and Associates shows GM and Ford TIED for first place, toppling former champ Lexus from the top spot. Buick (a GM vehicle) and Jaguar (a Ford product) tied for top ranking based on long term studies of 2006 models. No doubt today's models will test out as even MORE reliable. In addition, other top-spot winners were the Buick LaCross (beating out the Camry and Accord), the Mercury Grand Marquis (beating out the Toyota Avalon) and the Ford Ranger (beating out the Toyota Tacoma). In PREDICTED reliability, Consumer Reports has consistently ranked the Ford Fusion one or two levels above the Camry or Accord.

The USA Today article correctly alluded to the vast IMPROVEMENT in reliability of Jaguar AFTER ford took over their quality control. Unfortunately, Ford has now sold Jaguar to Tata motor company of India, so the quality will probably now plummet as Toyota's has in recent years. Of course they will still have the top-ranked Fusion. Ford has also ceased production of the large rear-drive Grand Marquis and Crown Victoria to concentrate on more fuel-efficient vehicles.

USA Today's own reviewers have recently bashed the Nissan and Toyota compacts, pointing out that the Ford Focus and even the bargain-priced Kia Rio are better alternatives. If an argument is to be made for sending our money to Japan, we ought to at least be able to justify it. Now it seems that even the "They're more reliable" argument no longer applies.

I'll support the best car makers in the world: Ford and GM.

To say domestic trucks do not last (e.g., obtain 500K+ miles) is absolutely preposterous. Someone earlier speculated that all high mileage domestics must have had their engines and transmissions replaced. While this person may actually believe that due to their obvious bias, the facts as usual prove otherwise.

Here are a few examples of domestic trucks that have gone ONE MILLION MILES with their original engines and transmissions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_Ou5vRTW90

http://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?ID=157

http://www.brandcurve.com/frank-oresniks-million-mile-chevy-silverado-for-sale-on-ebay/

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/04/another-million-mile-vehicle-97-ford-e-250-set-to-roll-its-odo/

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-18020.html

12:22 I wish I could understand why a 4 cylinder Toyota Tacoma owner is commenting on a much larger full size truck review?

I am glad to hear your plugs are easy to change and its cheap to operate. I have even heard comments on televisions on this review, which likely could be carried in the back of the small trucks as well.

Not everyone is so economy driven that I know that buy new full size trucks. They expect utility, function and practical applications in load carrying, towing. I personally feel it's wiser to buy a V8 engine to tow and carry loads in full size vehicles. You likely will consume the same fuel (MPG) and the vehicle works better overall under load. This is almost becoming an economy review more than function and practical application.

Expecting to translate a much smaller vehicle with a 4 cylinder on a full size truck review has dubious application relevance. I can see the car like comparisons 4 cylinder or economy, but why do individuals buy this category? As an owner I have tried to explain, but it seems it drifts off topic. I am hoping to see more actual full size model comments this year and newer... vehicle to vehicle comparisons sometime soon instead of filtering through equivalent same size-class vehicle comparisons.

To qualify for the Million Mile Club a vehicle must still have its original engine and transmission. There are actually GM trucks that have gone 2,000,000 miles. I am sure that most import owners are used to the idea of frequent engine replacements and transmission failures, and our Honda was a good example: 1 engine in less than 100,000 miles.

Many Hondas and Toyotas require transmissions every 40,000-60,000 miles. I suppose, for that reason, it is hard to conceive of a vehicle NOT requiring engines and transmissions.

None of our Ford, Chevy or Dodge trucks has EVER required a major engine or transmission repair, let alone replacement. Domestic trucks are over-engineered and with proper maintenance easily make 300,000 miles. Our companies F-150's, Chevys and Dodge Rams routinely make over a quarter of a million miles with NO repairs. The Rangers (used for light duty) often make 300,000 miles with nothing beyond routine maintenance.

"So the old-fashioned assumption that modern domestics are super-simple is an outright myth, and in fact the opposite is true."

Agreed. I was saying that this has been true IN THE PAST. Today the only factors that help are better reliability (of overall vehicles), an abundance of parts and a large base of semi-knowledgeable shade-tree mechanics.

Simplicity is only a benefit if you purchase an older vehicle.

"To say domestic trucks do not last (e.g., obtain 500K+ miles) is absolutely preposterous. Someone earlier speculated that all high mileage domestics must have had their engines and transmissions replaced."

Some do. Who speculated that all high mileage domestics had their engines and transmissions replaced? If you're referring to my comment that high mileage vehicles have often had major repairs or replacements... well... I wasn't talking about domestics specifically (and I didn't use the word "all"). Otherwise I stand behind what I said.

What's "preposterous" is this thread. People will be unlikely to read this and let it make their car buying choice for them (or have it sway them about the import vs domestic argument). They will likely let their experiences and those of friends and relatives make that determination. Otherwise, they'll probably consult publications that they trust to help narrow down the choices.

So this fits the classic definition of a tempest in a teapot. More than likely most readers are laughing and shaking their heads. I know I am. Cheers!

"Thanks. I stand corrected. Why do you feel that uni-body is unreliable?"

Because it's not as durable as body-on-frame. I'm not trying to cause a debate but it is. That's part of the reason why Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car are so durable. I may only be 19, but I have done at least 3 years worth of research on these cars, then finally made my decision and purchased one. I have put 10,000 trouble-free miles on it and expect many, many, more. It's a 98 Crown Vic with 95,680 miles.

16:20 Well, you can keep reading and believing USA Today if you like. I'd rather value the opinions of people who actually matter in the automotive industry, like Consumer Reports, Car and Driver, and Motortrend, for example, who rate Ford as lukewarm at best (which IS generous considering their track record for making junk cars), and rate GM as the complete junk that it is; near the bottom. I'll stick with the best vehicles in the world, Toyota and Honda, and continue to avoid what has proven to me and millions of others to be junk - Ford, GM, and Dodge.

Toyota does a far better job of RESEARCH and design, something Ford and GM know very little about these days. Just draw it up, slap it together, and sell it. This is why Toyota's get far better real world gas mileage than a Ford or GM with the same displacement. This is why Toyota's always run smoother and the engines don't sound like they're full of nickels under acceleration, like the brand new F-150 does every time. This is what has made Toyota the best automaker in the world, while GM, Ford, and Dodge are busy begging for their mere existence.

Domestic fans, go ahead and keep posting all the dirt you can find on Toyota. I'm sure I could find negative press about Mother Theresa if I looked hard enough. Go ahead and continue to ignore the fact that the Big 3 still make junk and still have more problems per 100 vehicles than Toyota (far more). Somebody has to buy that garbage; it helps keep the price of Toyota's down a little when somebody buys the other crap.

"To qualify for the Million Mile Club a vehicle must still have its original engine and transmission."

Was that always true? Can you give me a link? I've been looking for THE Million Mile Club and can't find one that isn't related either to semi-trucks or individual brands like Volvo.

As far as the imports needing engines or transmissions early, I can only say that CR doesn't show that nor did I experience it with any of the imports (or domestics) that I've owned (the ones that hadn't been abused by a prior owner. We had one import and one domestic that had been beat and needed major repairs).

But when you're talking about vehicles that go half a million or a million miles... no one does reliability research on them. I've seen pretty impressive domestics too. I don't mean to put them down at all.

I wrote the following - "No they do not - they may be rear wheel drive, but they are not body on frame. Virtually everything is uni-body nowadays."

Nowhere in this statement did I ever say the unibody vehicles were unreliable. Please don't confuse me with someone else.