2002 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

"why keep some old heap over 200,000 miles that has washed all its value out unless you never sell it, can do 100% of all road side repairs yourself to not exceed the value of the vehicle. Most people I know find they want to have some value left in a vehicle to offset a brand new vehicle purchase."

There's a number of reasons to keep a vehicle past 200,000 miles. It saves money. Using the bulk of the population as a shining example of what should be done - which is to buy a new car every 5 years - isn't exactly proving anything since the avg. US citizen is around $10,000 in debt and lacks any real savings or retirement. That tends to come from overconsumption of goods like cars, flatscreen TVs, and houses.

I've had the same Toyota truck for almost 14 years. It has 220,000 miles on it. It actually still looks and drives like new. The paint even still has a nice shine. I maintain it religiously, change the oil every 3,000 miles, do all the right maintenance, and so on. Other than brake pads, a clutch, a water pump, and a few other little odds and ends, that's all it has needed. As mentioned, it is in fantastic condition. The miles are only incidental because I could easily drive it another 200,000 miles and be just fine.

In the time I've had this truck, the average person has already bought 3 new cars or trucks, which even if bought with residual trade-in value means they've spent 2-3 times as much in the same time period. If I say - keep the truck for a total of 20 years, which seems likely, I would have saved almost 4 times the money over someone who trades in every 5 years. That represents a total savings of anywhere from $75,000-$100,000, which these days means half a decent house, two college educations, or a good amount of retirement. In fact, I've saved more than that already, and that comes from being frugal, but also keeping the same vehicles for long periods.

This comes back to the core issue at hand. I have Toyotas because even though they might not have as many whistles and bells, nor fantastic styling, or even the best interior materials, but ultimately, their drivetrains are absolutely top-notch, easy to service, and well-engineeered and in almost any case perform reliably for long past the time that typical domestic cars and trucks I've owned have made it. To me it is a money saving advantage to own quality engineering... which again is why I own Toyotas.

"When a commenter who has previously stated that they have never owned a new domestic or full sized truck suddenly states "I've owned NEW and used domestics", you can immediately disregard the credibility of any previous (or future) statements from that commenter."

"OK, call me a DEMI-GOD. The commenter in question ADMITTED he exaggerated in a later comment. It's in the previous comments (which my wise friends DID bother to read)."

You'll have to forgive my ignorance since I don't know to whom you refer, who YOU are with any certainty, or if you were just making a general statement vs. one referencing a specific event. Furthermore, and I quote, you said "you can immediately disregard the credibility of any previous (or future) statements from that commenter." How can you be sure that the person so identifies themselves with each and every post? That's why I figured that your comment was at least mostly "rhetorical, not historical"... and also virtually impossible without "higher knowledge". If they don't identify themselves, you're stuck disregarding all posts you don't like that sound sort-of like his writing. Sounds almighty convenient.

"Likewise, a car buyer who pays thousands more for a Camry or Accord than they would for a virtually identical-in-every-respect Ford (or Chevy) will staunchly report in a survey that they are "very satisfied", and have had "no problems" to avoid the embarrassment of having to admit they made a bad decision."

I've seen that phenomenon before too, but it was in no way limited to imports. Owners don't like to tell those they know that their new _____ is a piece of crap. But a form won't ridicule you for making a "bad" decision... only your friends or perhaps people on this forum. So I doubt that this reality has very much bearing at all on a mail-in survey or that it specifically helps those companies that you don't like.

Further...merely suggesting that people MIGHT be too emotionally involved with cars to tell the truth even on a survey form, IN NO WAY PROVES IT. I could similarly come up with semi-psychological reasons that all the domestic owners (which would include me, I guess) on this forum are pathological liars (I don't remotely believe this, by the way) but it wouldn't make it true. I could make up similar reasons to doubt virtually every survey ever done, but those reasons would be just doubts and wouldn't discredit the surveys until I have PROOF.

The truth is that the surveys that are being done use different methods and emphasize different aspects of reliability. They ask primarily for parts replaced or trips to the shop. The majors in this regard are mostly consistent with their outcomes. They usually accept no advertising. A person COULD fail to report out of some weird pride but that would be unlikely to help one brand over another so, YES, I believe the surveys are accurate if not scientific.

"There is not, nor ever WILL BE a "scientific type survey" of something as emotionally motivating and purely subjective as reliability in automobiles."

Reliability isn't subjective. How people feel about it IS. So they don't ask how people feel about the reliability of their vehicle. They only ask what went wrong in some appropriate time span. They do this on a form so there is no one to impress or disappoint. They compile that information then report it in some orderly fashion that they've chosen for clarity and accuracy.

The truth remains that most of the people who dislike the surveys seem to do so because they dislike the conclusions of them. They'll say "I had a Cordoba that went 2,000,000 miles before a tune up, so any survey that doesn't show the absolute divine nature of Cordobas must be flawed". Not true. That would assume that:

#1 all Cordobas were built exactly the same

#2 all Cordobas were driven exactly the same

#3 all Cordobas were driven in exactly the same environs

#4 all Cordobas were maintained exactly the same

#5 all other potential variables were perfectly controlled as well. Surveys are able to ignore the variables and just report the outcomes using objective standards. Anything less is INDEED less.

So, to conclude, I respectfully (but nearly completely) disagree with your approach to these issues.... even if you ARE a demi-god :)

"Full sizes haul and tow, not like the little train that could. When you own a model and look for reviews, do you not look for exactly the same? A Tacoma would not budge my boat - blown engine, trans rear no doubt in short order, waste of time. You have no concept and cannot recommend any full size. It's scary someone would have faith in zero experience."

What do you drive? How does its capacities compare to the new Toyota Tundra?

12:28 Well, the fact is, if GM hadn't been making junk for the last 35 years, they wouldn't be in the sad position that they're in today. If they'd had the frame of mind to actually build cars and trucks that last, they'd be in good shape today, just like Toyota is, because they DID choose a philosophy that revolves around quality.

There is one point that I have to agree with "Tacoma Guy" on. Driving an old vehicle does save you money, particularly if you keep it well maintained and can handle some repairs yourself. However, unlike him, my choices for cheap, reliable, used cars have been Dodge and more recently Ford, which I have typically bought when 5-10 years old for less than a few thousand dollars. I'm not helping the economy any more than he is, except by having more discretionary spending in areas other than a car payment. On the other hand, my savings rate of 35% makes me feel okay about buying something when I need it.

"For that 14% to be unemployed the US would have to stop making parts, vehicles and quit buying new ones of every single brand."

Not true. The 14% is DOMESTIC MANUFACTURERS ONLY. Please review the book "The United States of Toyota" for the figures. The percentage of people directly or indirectly employed by foreign industrial concerns is minuscule. Also, if ANY of the Big Three go under, in all likelihood so will 90% of the independent parts manufacturers. Delphi had to file bankruptcy FOUR YEARS AGO due to Japan and China providing more cheaply built parts to the auto industry.

"The truth is that the surveys that are being done use different methods and emphasize different aspects of reliability."

Yes, exactly... and NONE of them are very accurate or even remotely reliable. And YES, people lie on every conceivable type of survey, even anonymous ones. Many people would rather hold on to their prejudiced views (as import fans do) than admit that a problem IS a problem. To the average import fan, a blown engine is "just a small issue" with Toyota, but a non-functioning cigarette lighter on a Taurus with 200,000 miles on it makes it "crap".

In college we had a wonderful course on "How to use research, statistics and sales data to lie effectively" I LOVED that course. It was so true to life. ALL companies skew statistics and research studies for their own benefit, and magazines and "unbiased" sources are just as bogus as any. Does ANYONE really believe the ratings in Consumer Reports or J.D. Powers are 100% accurate?? Give me a break! The ONLY reliable source for REAL accuracy in automotive reliability is ACTUAL FREQUENCY OF REPAIR RECORDS from dealers and outside service facilities, and getting ACCURATE records from EITHER foreign OR domestic dealers would be about as hard as finding a politician who tells the truth. It's NOT going to happen. God only knows how many bad engines Toyota has replaced in their vehicles in the past 5 years and ONLY God will know, because Toyota (OR Ford OR GM) aren't ABOUT to tell us!!

And yes, it's me, the Demigod (I LIKE that name, it's as big an ego trip as saying "LOOK AT ME! I DRIVE A BEEMER!"

"However, unlike him, my choices for cheap, reliable, used cars have been Dodge and more recently Ford, which I have typically bought when 5-10 years old for less than a few thousand dollars."

I think we're probably on a similar wavelength, but approaching it differently, which is fine. Both of my vehicles are the absolute bottom of the barrel, no-frills econo models. My truck has crank windows, manual locks, a manual transmission, cloth seats, and so on. I bought the truck for its engine, with this particular engine rated as one of the best engines in the market. The truck was only around $9,500 new off the lot back in 1995. My Wife's car is much the same.

We make pretty good money and truthfully could be buying BMW's and Mercedes. But I don't care and would rather have the cheapest, most reliable vehicle that will do its job for 15-20 years before I buy another one. People in the US seem very concerned about their outward appearance and spend lots of money on cars to do so. There's nothing wrong with that, but at the end of the day it comes down to how long you want to work and what kind of retirement you want. As-is, we save almost 55% of our incomes and even though we're only in our late 20's, early 30's could probably buy a house with cash and have enough in retirement to be pretty well set by the time we're 60.

But had we done like a lot of people and insisted on buying the nicest car that our income could strain to afford every 5 years, we would probably be in debt right now, which in my opinion is the option most people take.

I can also see the benefit to your route because due to their positive reputation, Toyotas demand much higher prices than the same vintage Ford. In fact, I have a friend who buys a 2-3 year old Taurus every 4-5 years. It usually makes it to a little under 100k before some horrible mechanical mishap occurs at which point he sells it and gets another.The cars are almost disposable. Since the cars are dirt-cheap, he still saves more money than buying a new Camry or Accord every 10 years. So if you just want something cheap, domestic brands do offer value at some level.

19:47 as well as plenty of other recent posts... do any of you actually own a late model full size truck whatsoever? I am trying to keep abreast on late model full size truck and exact equals. Does 19:47 have an exact Tundra model with specs so that I can offer an exact comparison to my new GM Silverado (full size) It speaks again of Tacoma. And I suspect the following post is Tacoma again, as it's never specific enough to be proud of what they own... it's "Toyota" certainly not the Tundra or it would be referred to. I keep waiting for anyone else that has test driven new full sizes within the past year with any new developments. It would be nice to actually learn something... when you buy a new vehicle do you not look at exact equivalents?

Full size trucks is a very dedicated specific category, so who owns a new one to compare? It's a holiday weekend, how about some serious shoppers going out and test driving some full size 2009 models import and domestics vs. the same boring vague little car and little truck tirade.

I disagree on driving a full size truck forever, especially if you have a serious investment in tow and jeopardizing a breakdown on the road with aged components. I had to leave my boat once over a hundred miles away, rent a car and drive back twice.

As far as the great savings, what if you are successful, own a home not mortgaged, can buy a new vehicle without debt... should you ride about in some beater?

I am meticulous on maintenance, especially taking a boat 60 miles offshore... and that over maintenance reflects in my new vehicles as well. Every single component on a 250,000 mile vehicle has wear, and why dump major money and have other elements still old. If I cruised around solo, towed nothing, had all my sockets and tool boxes filled I could stand on the side of road all day. I am not doing that in hundred degree heat, heavy shore traffic and messing with some old crap beater. I certainly would not pay towing, non warranty repairs far from home, rent vehicles, worry about what I am towing with losing my outdrives, electronics etc. being swiped. Maybe someone else on here has a new full size truck that may tow boats, larger travel trailers etc long distances on weekends and cannot deal with the crap.

If I were commuting solo to work, I could call on my cell and leave a $1000 used 200,000 mile truck on the road and let them take it. I wouldn't even pay the towing or storage. It's broke and done for.

It would be nice to be specific and say you have a full size truck and why you own one, what specific purpose and applications and get off the economy car discussions. Applications come first with full size, if you do nor have one how can you understand others that have invested in one? When I read "Toyota" only anymore not the exact model I am willing to bet 99.9% that its a small car, small truck owner on a full size truck review. How about saying model owned on each comment please.

"There is one point that I have to agree with "Tacoma Guy" on. Driving an old vehicle does save you money, particularly if you keep it well maintained and can handle some repairs yourself. However, unlike him, my choices for cheap, reliable, used cars have been Dodge and more recently Ford"

I agree 100%. When I returned to the university in 1995 to finish my degree I wanted an old "beater" because I had to park in a very high-crime area. I paid $300 for a 1979 Ford Pinto with 180,000 miles on it. It ran flawlessly for 4 years, then I sold it for TWICE what I paid for it. I also bought my best friend's 1990 Dodge Omni to help him out financially. At the time it had 186,000 miles on it. I drove it to 240,000 miles and sold it for exactly what I bought it for. It had had only 2 brake jobs, 2 timing belts and 1 hose in its entire life (I knew the car's history because it was best friend's car and as a mechanic I serviced it).

You can't go wrong buying an old DOMESTIC car. My experiences with used imports has been pretty awful. I'd never recommend a used import that was out of warranty. They are way too expensive to repair and they tend to have many more problems after 100,000 miles.

"I'm not helping the economy any more than he is, except by having more discretionary spending in areas other than a car payment"

You ARE helping the economy by buying ANYTHING. Even though I'd never dream of stabbing my country in the back by buying a NEW import, I heartily ENCOURAGE people (who don't mind paying way too much) to buy USED imports from DOMESTIC dealers. When I recently bought my Fusion the local Ford dealer had a lot half full of Camrys that had been traded in on Fusions, as well as two Accords and a Tacoma Pre-runner SR-5. Buying one of those would be a boost to a local business, even if it was a less-than-ideal vehicle at a ridiculous price.

Apparently, I am 'Tacoma guy', so here's some more general comments on auto manufacturers as a result of my experience tonight...

I just had the misfortune of driving a brand new Chevy Aveo tonight. Long story short, left a wedding and drove the groom's Aveo from one place to another. He paid for this car the same price I paid for my new Hyundai Accent... and the Aveo is laughable. I literally felt bad for him as soon as I sat in it. This is the most cheap, tacky looking interior I've EVER seen.

My Accent is WORLDS ahead of this car. It just looks absolutely ridiculous, is designed absolutely ridiculously inside. It looks like a go cart inside. As cheap as possible. The engine noise is a joke. The vibration from the car when you downshift and hit 3500 rpms is a low pitch buzz that just settles in your ear and annoys the hell out of you.

There is NO styling whatsoever inside. Just a random collection of cheap looking parts tossed together. Typical Chevy. No wonder they're on their way out.

As a 3 time consecutive Toyota owner, I can tell you that my Accent, while a very good car, is no match for Toyota. This Aveo doesn't even enter in the running. No wonder the reviews it gets are all terrible. They should be. I don't know how he even drives it. Made me want to get out and push it over a cliff. If this is the best Chevy can do for what he paid for it, it's no wonder they have the reputation they do.

23:08 what possible benefit can be derived from a Aveo, Tacoma comment on a full size truck review for a tentative buyer? I keep hoping someone else has some new full size trucks that can comment on actual applications, daily experience etc. What you use it for, how it tows, handles, carries loads (full size truck).

Out of 1000 plus posts, very little if hardly a handful of people likely own a 2002 to present full size.

When you open a newspaper for example to buy a new full size truck, are you on the Aveo section? Or even better, why not read about Rolls Royce and then buy a small car/truck. There's absolutely no knowledge gained by other new full size truck owners comparing to exact equivalent full size trucks. Aveo... Tacoma, go carts, great, who's buying them on a full size truck review? Seems like a sounding board that has zero effect on us that test and really buy these vehicles.

I do not understand why someone with no interest ever in owning or has zero applications dictates what those that really own have late model full sizes. Have you ever carried what full sizes can, do you know how to tow, back up? Probably never and until you do why comment on zero application knowledge? It's the little train again wishing they could.

Please buy a new or newer full size and give us actual real world illustrations. Manufacturer, model, packages and why you ordered them and how they perform daily. There's some people that own full sizes or considering buying new(er) or they would not be hanging, dreaming so much on a full size truck review. I'd be on the Rolls Royce section.... if I never will buy, own, have actual daily experience, pick a high end dream car to comment and lust after. That is what I would do rather than devote so much time on a vehicle I am not ever going to own.

"19:47 as well as plenty of other recent posts... do any of you actually own a late model full size truck whatsoever? I am trying to keep abreast on late model full size truck and exact equals. Does 19:47 have an exact Tundra model with specs so that I can offer an exact comparison to my new GM Silverado (full size) It speaks again of Tacoma."

I wrote 19:47. No I don't (and never have owned) a Tacoma. I sold my 2000 Tundra SR5 extended cab in Sept. I was just ASKING some questions. I wondered what you own and how it compares to new Tundra specs. I own a travel trailer and, like you, am wondering if someone has some actual experience with current model full-sized trucks has any cross-shopped-experience. When you are looking at trailering like I am, information about how they handle, drive, and perform over the long haul is in short supply. So I was just asking you about your experience.

You have a Silverado? How does it do? With what load weight and type? Have you had any problems? What do you use for a hitch? I've used a weight distribution type (which is the only reason a 2000 Tundra could pull my 6500lb trailer -- it's rated to pull it, but the tongue weight was too much for good handling).

The new Tundra boasts competitive specs (I've heard it can tow trailers up to 10,300lbs??), but anyone who trailers can tell you that the numbers don't necessarily tell you all you need to know.

"Yes, exactly... and NONE of them are very accurate or even remotely reliable. And YES, people lie on every conceivable type of survey, even anonymous ones. Many people would rather hold on to their prejudiced views (as import fans do) than admit that a problem IS a problem. To the average import fan, a blown engine is "just a small issue" with Toyota, but a non-functioning cigarette lighter on a Taurus with 200,000 miles on it makes it "crap"."

Demi-god (It IS a good name :) ) : Well I can't comment from the "import fan's" perspective since, as I said before, I not one. Apart from that we're just going to have to agree to disagree then because fanaticism (import and domestic) goes both ways and cancels out the effect to some unknown degree.

"In college we had a wonderful course on "How to use research, statistics and sales data to lie effectively" I LOVED that course. It was so true to life. ALL companies skew statistics and research studies for their own benefit, and magazines and "unbiased" sources are just as bogus as any. Does ANYONE really believe the ratings in Consumer Reports or J.D. Powers are 100% accurate??"

No more so than ANY decent research. Simply proving that someone CAN lie using statistics doesn't prove that they ARE. The obvious answer to you is "prove it".

Indeed, you seem to have drawn a false conclusion from your course... to whit, that all research is bogus. Your college course has been affirmed by users on this thread alone... those who use partial truths, overly narrow sources, and partial statistics that affirm their viewpoint while leaving out the rest that maybe even tells the opposite story (then, when the rest of the info is quoted, often attacking the very firms from whom they got the stats in the first place).

Simply discrediting ALL statistics leaves you with no basis for (purchase) decisions without reference to sources that are decidedly suspect due to their sample size or personal biases. In fact, if you simply removed the term "domestic" and inserted "foreign", many of the domestic fans' arguments would still sound valid because THEY AREN'T RESEARCH BASED COMMENTS. If you discredit statistics, you have perpetual argument and no resolution --- nothing but opinion... you'll rail against "Tacoma Guy" but be forced to use his arguments (in reverse).

Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree because you seem to think that all studies are biased just because they COULD be... and I doubt that conclusion. We're at an impasse. I don't think that the basis for doubt should simply be a disagreement with a statistical outcome.

Stats say that ALL of the trucks involved are of nearly equal quality and that Toyota and Ford are at the top of their respective games quality-wise. But you won't accept the possibility that Toyota is any good... so... by extension ALL research showing otherwise must be faulty; All Toyota owners must be brainwashed by "add hype"; All of them are willing to lie about it; Most of them apply inconsistent standards to vehicular quality; All of them are unpatriotic; And any of them who have the unmitigated temerity to mention some problems they had with a domestic vehicle MUST BE bald-faced liars.

This seems to be the illogical package that has been being presented here on this forum as though it were somehow conclusive. I hope your friends enjoy their Fusions. They are very fine cars... according to the stats.