2007 Toyota Tundra SR5 from North America - Off Topic Comments

I don't know if it is true, but I a guessing that the Ford and GM, etc is cheaper than the Toyota? Here in the UK, we do not have any of the pick ups mentions - but in relation to the cars, Ford and Vauxhall (GM) are definately 'build 'em cheap, pile them high' and you get what you pay for. I am guessing this is the same with pick ups in the USA. The Toyota is probably better made, but the domestics will give you a better deal upon purchase and probably not be so well looked after. The domestics will do the job, but the Toyota will do it just that little bit better.

19:33 Well spoken. A lot of past domestic truck owners are now realizing that the Tundra is more than a match for a comparably sized Ford or Chevy truck, and the sales numbers reflect it, with Tundra sales always gaining momentum while the others lose it.

I know a few people with new Tundra's that have been their first Toyota's, and they're extremely impressed. A good friend of mine just traded an '06 Ram (with the V-6) because he'll soon be buying a large camper and the Ram wouldn't tow it. So, he looked at F-150's, Silverado's, and Tundra's. He's had Chevy trucks before and had bad luck, as well as saying he wouldn't buy the Silverado based on looks alone, commenting about the big, gaudy plastic grille on it. He ended up deciding on the Tundra, but in the end didn't want to spend the money for it, so by default he bought the F-150. Now he wishes he'd spent a little more and gotten the better truck.

I think that's where a lot of these F-150 sales come from. People end up just 'settling' for a Ford instead of buying what they really want. Sometimes I don't blame them. If you aren't planning on keeping it very long, the Ford will do, but for those of us who like to keep and drive a reliable vehicle for many years after it's paid off, Toyota is the only choice that makes sense. Now my friend looks at every Tundra he sees, wishing he had bought one instead.

A guy at work had proudly bought a Toyota Tundra, and you're so right -- I just can't decide which aspect of it is the most superior to domestics.

Could it be that the Toyota has to be downshifted two gears to get up a hill, and even then it wheezes like an asthmatic sucking air? Although it is pretty cool how the whole body shakes, including the stick shift, just idling, as though the engine is missing.

It's also pretty great that the cab is so small and cramped that it's nearly impossible to fold yourself into it. I suppose that midgets would find that superior.

After being subjected to that thing a few times, I really can't understand all the hype over the Toyota Tundra! Whatever you guys see in it, more power to you, but you couldn't give me one of those rattle-traps!

Well, there have been a lot of comments about farming and construction sites, but I have another one to add -- mining. Underground mines are a very tough environment, and vehicles are beat HARD! And I don't mean driving through a mud puddle out on grandma's farm for an hour each weekend and telling everybody how you push it to the "X-treem." They have to constantly climb steep grades with slippery, loose rock, get slammed into rock walls, drive through 2-foot pools of the thickest mud, carry miners and heavy equipment. Guys are tough on these vehicles, they're constantly filthy, slammed into gear, over-revved, driven over rocks, overloaded, never maintained, the drive trains are constantly submerged in mud and water, day after day. When a truck goes into the mines, it is sent there to die, and nobody takes care of it whatsoever.

There are a few old Toyotas left in the mines, based on the old Land Cruiser that were turned into utility vehicles. These are impressive machines, with extremely heavy leaf springs front and back, full time 4-wheel drive, and all metal bodies, although equipment subcontractors built them and there isn't much left from the original Toyota. But they are old and mostly worn out now, and were not replaced with modern soft, fluffy Toyotas.

You know what's being used in the tough environment of the mines? Ford F-350 and F-250 diesel pickups, and Excursions, and Dodge 2500 and 3500 diesel pickups. You NEVER see a Toyota, and only rarely a Chevy. In fact, at one mine they were still using their first Excursion while they had trashed four Suburbans during the same time frame. I think that tells you which vehicles can take the worst abuse and keep performing their job.

I know people that are die hard dodge trucks fans because they've gotten hundreds of thousands of miles out of them. I can say the same for Ford and GM Trucks.

Trucks are meant to live a long time because they are built with abuse and hard work in mind. Everything is heavy duty for that reason.

I haven't seen many new Tundra's around and I live in a city, but I'm sure it's a good truck.

But to those Toyota lovers I say think twice before you bash domestic trucks, which have been the backbone of this economy for decades.

"I own a Tacoma with well over 200k and make over 6 figures for my income. Enough to easily buy a fully loaded Chevy Silverado with all the trimmings or even a BMW or Mercedes. Yet I drive a 12 year old small econo-truck with lots of miles on it why? Perhaps it has something to do with intelligent financial fortitude."

I completely agree with your financial strategy regarding keeping vehicles for a long time. I also make over 6 figures, can buy any vehicle I want CASH, but happily drive 10+ year old vehicles with over 200K miles. The only difference is, my vehicles are domestic, and in every single instance, have given me no or next to no trouble. So I can assure you, it is quite possible, as well as easy (with proper care and maintenance), to carry out your strategy with domestic vehicles.

So, I'll stick with what I know works - my domestic vehicles - and (Heaven forbid) be patriotic as an added bonus. This idea that Toyota's supposedly are superior to domestics is complete nonsense, and extremely damaging to our economy. If you (original commenter) are really so concerned about your finances, you should pay very close attention to this if you want to keep your six figure income.

Before anyone starts in with their template rebuttals that I can foresee already, about how buying a "Toyota" is some how more patriotic then buying a GM or Ford because of Toyota's beloved plants in the US, please read the following article (see link), and tell me if you honestly still believe that:

http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html

18:11 Well, you see, that's where you're wrong: in general, you can't drive domestics to 200,000 with no trouble like you can with a Toyota. You'll have to forgive me for not believing everything I read. If you have actually done this with a few domestics in a row, then you are blessed with incredibly good luck, and you are in the vast minority. Most people realize that a Toyota will rack up more miles than any domestic, and with less trouble, almost all of the time. I can see where someone that drives a domestic would want to brag about 200,000 miles, but for a Toyota owner who takes care of his vehicles, that's just one more time that the odometer rolls over.

17:37 Domestic trucks have only been used often and sold in large numbers because there were NO other choices! That's the only reason. You have to use what's available, even if it's crappy, if there are no alternatives. Now that Toyota makes a full size truck, there are better options.

17:27:

OK, fine, you have your beliefs, I have mine. I can see that you simply do not believe me that I get hundreds of thousands of miles out of my domestics with little or not trouble, and nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. Your assertion that you can't drive domestics to over 200,000 with no trouble, is incorrect. I do it all the time, with mileages of well over 200,000s on every domestic vehicle I have ever owned, and see others do it on a regular basis as well. None of my vehicles ever failed me, or ever needed an engine replacement, and were always running great when I sold them.

Throwing innuendos around such as "you'll have to forgive me for not believing everything I read" does not address the fact that buying Japanese vehicles is killing the US economy. You are a smart guy for not believing everything you read, so I am sure you are capable of distinguishing facts from propaganda. Therefore, I do not think you read the article in the link provided in 18:11, or at least not very closely. There was nothing factually incorrect about it.

The facts are:

- When the Japanese build a plant in the US, they are given the land for free or next to nothing, and do not have to pay taxes on the land or pay very little - American manufacturers are given any of these breaks.

- Japanese companies can sell products (and are allowed to open plants in the US) with no restrictions, but the US is not provided that opportunity in Japan.

- The Japanese are waging economic war on the US; they over value products in their own domestic market, to cover selling them at a loss in the US market, for the purposes of driving American companies out of business - America, for some insane reasons, does not have any protections in place to counteract this, and people who buy Japanese products, are (I am sure in most cases inadvertently) bringing the Japanese one step closer to toppling the US economy.

Assuming you are from the US, do you want to essentially be a soldier for the Japanese, in helping them bring down the US economy? I do not mean to be overly dramatic or offensive, but that is exactly what you are doing when you buy a Japanese product. Can we please get past the notion that Japanese products are supposedly superior? Any look at all of the quality problems Toyota has been having recently (do a little research on this folks) should dispel that.

So many people make excuses for Toyota, my own fellow Americans (at least I think), it is sickening. If an American car model has a problem, which I will not deny happens, the rant from the Toyota crowd goes (paraphrasing) "you see, all American cars are crap, but Toyota's are great..." But, if a Toyota has a problem as has been happening with great frequency recently (again, do a little research), no matter how serious it is, the apologies from the Toyota crowd come fast and furious. You get barraged like machine gun fire with the programmed responses such as (paraphrasing) "well, Toyota's have been great for so many years, they are entitled to a mistake, they are still better than American cars, always will be, that is a fact, and everybody knows it..." Correspondingly, if/when an American vehicle achieves high mileage, it is dismissed as being "lucky." It is purely irrational thinking. Any fact that is presented is either completely ignored, or at the very least considered a fluke, depending on how it suits the agenda.

None of the Toyota faithful wants to admit they might have bought into a bill of goods by Toyota, and may have to challenge their assumptions on what they have always thought was the truth. So, they'll buy anything Toyota puts out, at any cost to our economy, and make excuses for any problems they are experiencing, having steadfastly convinced themselves that Toyota's are still automatically superior to anything else that is available. They will do absolutely anything/everything, but challenge their believes, and admit they might be wrong.

So, I have no notions of being able to change the minds of anybody who falls into the above category. I just hope there are enough objective people left who can see what is going on, both with the idea of Toyota superiority being an utter ridiculous myth, and how buying one is so damaging to our economy, before disaster occurs. Then, it would be nice if a miracle takes place, and our elected officials actually implement a trade policy where America can protect its interests, like every other country rightfully does for itself. But we can clearly not expect much out of our politicians, so in the mean time, our defense lies wholly in a proactive, patriotic citizenry. That is a scary thought.

I have found the answer for "23rd Sep 2007, 09:38"

Ohio and Kentucky were never part of the United States, so whenever a car is built in Marysville or East Liberty, or Kentucky for that matter, the Japanese sovereignties of Ohio and Kentucky get all the profits hurting the USA based in Detroit who build excellent cars that are world class. Not to mention that in one month they started building quality. They flipped the quality switch once they figured that they could not build cars with defects. I hear Texas, Indiana, and California have joined this new Japanese confederacy you talk about? My unreliable Honda Accord with nearly 300,000 miles... about 1/3 teen driven over 85 miles per hour. Worst car I have ever had... It did not need me to have it repaired. So un cool next to a Buick Century with an automatic with my slick straight stick.

09:38 Yes, I think you are being a little dramatic.

I live in Pennsylvania, and have no inclination to become a Japanese soldier! Come on... Look, I know I'll never get any of you Ford/Chevy guys to admit it, but you know as well as I do that Toyota has set the gold standard for quality in automobiles. They have a very well - EARNED reputation for making vehicles that generally run smoother, are more efficient, and break down less than anything else. How many times can I say this; look at the reviews given by all of the auto magazines ANYWHERE in the world and you'll see that Japanese-built automobiles hold the top reliability ratings year after year.

Yeah, sure, you'll see a Buick now and then, and even possibly a Ford or Chevy in there once in a while, but Japanese vehicles always come out on top, because they're built better and with more care than anything else. I can and do separate the facts from the propaganda, and I won't deny that Toyota has its problems. So what? They're growing incredibly fast and expanding with their truck segment, so it's growing pains.

Shall we look back at the histories of Chevy, Ford, and Dodge in their down times? Surely YOU are smart enough to admit that what those 3 put out in the 80's and most of the 90's was terrible. I've used this example before; my aunt just got rid of an '89 Cavalier she barely drove, that blew up at 100,000. Oddly enough, she found a good condition '89 Camry that she bought. Side by side, those cars look like they are from different planets, and the Cavalier is so flimsy and cheap looking next to the Camry that it's actually funny.

Think about all of the Toyota trucks to date, up till '96 when they became Tacoma's; then think about all of the Tacoma's; you can't kill those trucks. I could cite example after example about how much abuse they can take, way more than any other truck ever built anywhere in the world.

And I don't need to hear from the people that tell me they don't take abuse well because they can't haul a 90 foot horse trailer full of bricks or whatever like an F-350 can. That's two different topics, towing capacity and just general 'toughness' of the vehicle. No other truck will last as long being run hard, over-revved, and generally just driven hard and fast like a Toyota truck will. And that's not to speak of their cars, which are just as incredible. The Camry and Corolla have been the industry leaders for years. As well as all of the Tercels, which in my opinion are the most reliable cars ever built by anyone. They're incredible. They just keep running no matter how you drive them.

The point of all of this is, if I'm spending my hard-earned American dollar on ANY investment, I'm going to buy the best I can get for my money. This does not mean that I wish to see the U.S. economy collapse, or that I want the Japanese to take over. That's a pointless argument anyway. Whoever is reading this, look at anything electronic in your house, computer, stereo, appliances, the list goes on... most of it is made in Japan, China, Taiwan, whatever. Does this mean that you are a traitor because you own it? Does driving the best truck on the road (a Tacoma) mean that I am one? And for those of you who write in that Toyota quality is a 'myth'; give it up. The American public knows better.

To 9:38, I could not have said it any better, and I totally agree with you. You'll never convince them, they've been brainwashed in their second generation by Japanese video games and cartoons pushing Japanese products. You are absolutely right -- if the dashboard cracks on a Chevy then "all American cars are junk" but if the engine blows on a Toyota, it's a "rare occurrence from the world's quality, premier auto maker." If a Honda transmission blows at 50,000 miles, it's a "fluke" but if a Dodge goes 300,000 miles it's also a "fluke". It's like going to a re-education camp to learn Newspeak.

I will also keep driving my used domestics because it's like having money in the bank. Driving older domestics has allowed me to pay off my house in only 10 years, and have a retirement fund flush with cash because they are so cheap to run. Let them say what they like, I know better.

09:38,

First of all, the vast majority of the products sold in the US are made in China. That also includes many of the components in many domestic and foreign brand vehicles. In fact, a vast majority of the Japanese brand consumer electronics are also made in China. Why? because just like we did in the 70's and 80's, the Japanese are finding that manufacturing at home is not always the most economically viable option. Do you think China is also trying to take over the economy?

With your argument in regards to Japanese plants being setup on free land, well this is isn't exactly true. You see, in many cases these plants are setup in Southeastern locations: KY, TN, NC, AL, and so on. These states offer a variety of advantages over other more traditional manufacturing states. For one, the cost of labor is signifigantly less. A second MAJOR advantage is that the tax on business is a small fraction of what it is in say- Michigan. States like TN and KY provide tax incentives for companies from either out of state or from other country to setup business in their areas because they want to attract business. So for example, Nissan North America was headquartered in California a few years ago. The tax, environmental restrictions, high cost of labor and high cost of living made operations in CA prohibitive. TN offered a tax cut and lower operating costs not necessarily because they specifically offered it, but more because the cost of living and doing business in TN is about 1/3rd the cost of doing so in CA. So yes- they do get incentives, but it isn't free, nor is it specifically Japanese companies getting this treatment: Any company that relocates to a less expensive area will greatly benefit.

To conclude, I think the notion that we're being victimized by the Japanese, who some think are overtaking our economy is absurd. Simply put, if US car manufactures produced better products, then there would not be the problem of these companies losing market share. Nobody is stopping GM from making better cars and trucks, so if they go out of business, then they have nobody to blame, but themselves for failing to meet the demands of a free market consumer.

Since this has drifted off full size trucks again for some unknown reason, I thought I might bring it back into focus.

When buying a full size truck it is not at all like buying a new car, or even a small pickup for that matter. My #1 priority on purchasing a full size truck is capability. The number one reason... not fuel economy or having a much lighter duty truck. Otherwise I could drive a small hatchback with a rope to tie down the lid, or pursue fuel savings going with a small truck instead of a larger one.

Even the Tundra is undersized in my situation. I want the strongest heavy duty model I can find... not a vehicle that spends most of its life empty or tooling down the interstate. A Tundra can simply not pull or haul what I bought a new full size truck for.

I see import car mentality applied about fuel economy, even 200,000 mile comments even if it takes a lot of transmissions and engine issues on late models to achieve that. If you go in a new showroom and are shopping for a new full size truck, I do not see using the smaller vehicle mentality to justify purchasing a large truck. It's not an mpg visit or how far mileage wise can my drivetrain go empty.

I have owned cars and small trucks, and changed my own criteria when shopping. My latest new full domestic truck has more carrying capacity, better towing which is a real must, more room, ride and warranty.

If you want to continue endlessly commenting on cars and small trucks, it seems like this isn't what owning a full size and its advantages and benefits are about. Clearly domestics offer a broader range of full size trucks, and it's easy to see why Ford F Series alone outsold Tundras over 7 times last year. I think it is time to learn what discerning Americans want in a full size truck.

I will continue to test drive new imports such as the Titan or Tundra, but they have to at least be equivalent in strength, capability as I have these minimum expections before many others to prompt purchasing one.

10:41.

The "breaks" that the Japanese automakers receive, have nothing to do with the fact that they are located in areas where operating expenses are lower. Nice try. The Honda plant in Marysville, Ohio, to name one, was acquired (and functions) in exactly the manner described in 9:38. Yes, China is also engaging in the same trade practices as Japan, as are other Asian countries. That said, let me just say (and I should have said this in my previous post) that I have nothing against the Asian people, or their culture. To the contrary, I have a lot of respect for them as a people, and completely separate the actions of their government(s) from their citizens, who are just trying to get by like anyone else. In fact, I feel it is far more the fault of the US for letting ourselves be run roughshod over because we do not want to admit that our "free-trade" policies are an abysmal failure, then it is the Asian countries (although I do not like or agree with their practices) for just looking out for their interests.

The problems are caused by an absolutely ludicrous, and woefully self destructive political practice, which people who buy foreign products (particularly Japanese) keep enabling. With so many jobs leaving America (due to the absolutely stupid trade policies the US imposes on itself), states now go to Japan to try to attract Japanese companies and plants to come to their state. Since America, unlike almost all other industrialized countries, does not have any policies in place to regulate this, states end up getting played off against each other by Japanese companies and the Japanese government. Whichever state offers the most tax breaks, or contributes the most money to build the plant, is "awarded" the plant. While this may benefit the state in the short run (at least on the surface), and win elections, it is far worse for the state and the country in the long run.

The Japanese companies, in addition to having the extreme benefit of operating in plants built with the aid of taxpayer subsidies, also pay little or no taxes after the fact. With many states doing this to each other to "win" a few jobs, everyone winds up losing. The huge tax shortfall must be made up by placing more taxes on individuals, or pre-existing US businesses, who do not receive the benefits the Japanese companies are receiving, and the increased burden(s) to them come directly off their bottom line, while the savings are realized as profits to the Japanese companies.

The only people who are laughing all the way to the bank are the Japanese companies. How could they not be? The US government is completely stacking the deck against our own American companies. These problems facing the American auto industry are not as you shamelessly assert on this international forum, due the US not being able to complete in a free market economy. There is nothing "free" about it for US companies, only foreign companies operating in our markets. If you care about your country, you need to stand up and face reality. We can not sustain ourselves on inertia, and we definitely can not depend on politicians in Washington to figure out the situation and do what needs to be done. It is up to personal individuals to stand up and counteract the situation. If we lose the American auto industry, it will not be the joyful occasion that the Toyota faithful are anticipating.