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Comments: 1-15, 16-30, 31-45, 46-60, 61-75, 76-90, 91-105, 106-116
"Actually, you're helping in a BIG way. 91% of auto related jobs in the U.S. are for U.S. auto companies. German and Japanese companies in the U.S. employ literally a handful of people (NINE PERCENT OF TOTAL AUTO RELATED JOBS). I buy American. I'll KEEP buying American."
Yes and you will keep repeating your rhetoric until we all feel nauseous.
Not all drive imports... I know having 2 teens myself in high school and 2 grown, plus a very big family of nieces and nephews, many driving, and everyone congregates at our home. Likely because of the swimming pool as well. I see everything they are driving... some they bought themselves and many with parental help. It is not all imports or all domestics. The new ones (with parental help) include Jeeps (which my daughter now wants) small imports and small domestics, hand me downs including moms and grandmoms that no longer drive, company cars that my co workers bought with high mileage for their kids are domestics, newer models with different color fenders etc. from accidents picked up cheap, some driving one of their parents after work. I do not see a clear pattern on what they own.
And I have a teen daughter and teen son. My one son drives a 2003 Civic, while his older brother drove used Mustang GT's and bought a Viper at age 30. It's likely due to the fact my wife and I have had mixed import and domestic ownership. Since that theory over 50 does not apply, as with many we know have the same mixed ownership at the same moment. I have been married once before, and have followed this trend for many years with similar daughter and son from each marriage. I do not think teens follow the published reports and spend hours in the armchair calculating resale and pouring over their parents maintenance records. My daughters concern is more about color and if their friends fit in the car... my sons, especially the older one dreamed of a Mustang GT as a very first car with the 5.0. I never owned one and no other relative ever did before. He wanted one and it was the cleanest car on the block.
My first car I bought without even telling my parents, and heard about driving it home without insurance. Teens somehow do not listen usually anyway. I had money saved and just bought it from a classmate. If we ever get back on topic about full size trucks... no one but adults that are in our family have them, and they are typically as second or third vehicle. They are handy to own and perform a variety of tasks. I really like our new Silverado as we bring things home, tow as our primary application, and quite frankly I would not live without one.
I do know if there is any trend on what younger people may buy (without their parents credit card). It's the car insurance rates, high gas prices that are more a factor today than before. If a teen or young driver works hard on jobs, finished college and can afford a great car it is truly possible if you work very hard. I did it and my older son did it. He loves domestics and can literally afford either way.
The import theory in my mind is equally a domestic one, depending on who you know. It took me a long time to even care what anyone thought as I bought what I liked. Anymore in 2009 at least I see that as a positive. Is it such a bad start to be pro American in this dismal economy? The best thing is that our new domestics are saving us money, still the same my younger son liked Hondas. So at least we examined everything, late models, not with blinders on our face.
To those who continue to ask why they should buy from AMERICAN companies, this says it pretty darn clearly!!
"1) The Fusion IS the highest rated car in CR's projected reliability listings. It beats Camry, Accord and Altima... PERIOD. No "opinion" there, just FACT.
2) A Buick and a Ford tied for best LONG-TERM reliability (NOT initial quality, which doesn't make a HOOT of difference over the long run) in J.D. Powers reliability survey of long-term required repairs. Again, just fact.
3) The longest lasting truck featured in CR's article on long-lasting vehicles was a FORD. It had gone 488,000 trouble-free miles. Again, A fact.
4) The Ford F-150 is in its 30th year as the best selling full-sized truck. Tundra is struggling just to hang on.
5) Both Honda and Toyota have had NUMEROUS problems in recent years. CR pulled its "recommended" rating of the Camry in 2008 because of poor reliability. The Camry is STILL rated only "average". The Fusion is 2 full ratings HIGHER. Again, no speculation, just FACT.
6) No Toyota or Honda has EVER made it to the "million mile club". That means vehicles that are still running the same engine and transmission after 1,000,000 miles. Both Ford and Cadillac have made this milestone.
7) Personal experience matters when the numbers give sufficient data (consult any qualified statistician). Out of over 30 domestics owned by our family, NONE, not ONE, required a repair to the engine or transmission before 100,000 miles. ALL THREE of our imports had MASSIVE engine problems before 100,000 miles. The mathematical odds of that are out of the realm of pure coincidence. Getting 30 "unusual" good domestics and 3 "bad" imports is stretching the limits of reality. Conclusion: The domestics were better... PERIOD.
Even if I weren't a loyal American, I'd still buy domestics just for the much lower cost to purchase and better reliability and lower maintenance costs. As it is, I get the best of both worlds: Great reliability AND lower costs. In addition, I'm helping the 91% of U.S. citizens who work in auto-related jobs as opposed to helping the tiny 9% who work for foreign companies. That matters to me. You may not care about your friends and neighbors. I DO."
Please, no more of this "It doesn't matter what car you buy" stuff. It DOES MATTER. Ask an unemployed auto worker who is losing his home and having trouble feeding his kids.
My father was a highly decorated veteran of WWII, he was involved in 5 major battles in Europe.
He always owned an American car, but he also owned a little Datsun (Nissan) pick-up truck to run errands for his business in.
I am offended that according to the person or persons who keeps throwing patriotism around in this debate, my dad would be considered "unpatriotic".
This just goes to show me how wrong they are.
Thankfully because of my dad and millions like him, we here in America still have rights, including the right to buy what we choose to buy.
I happen to own an American car, but I have the right to drive whatever I want, and nobody has the right to dictate otherwise.
All the JD power ratings and articles talking about how much improvement the big 3 have made won't convince what most people have known for decades. Toyota and Honda build better cars and trucks than anything out of Detroit (or more lately now mostly out of Mexico and Canada with a few Chinese engines sprinkled in for good measure)
Money talks. Sales speaks volumes. Put 2 and 2 together and its clear that Toyota became the largest automaker simply because they built a reputation of quality. The fact that there are those on here who day in, day out make claims otherwise means they too recognize this.
I actually know someone with a Ford Fusion. A 2007 to be exact. Sure - it's a lot nicer than the Tauruses and Escorts Ford out out a few years ago. But get inside the car and it's the same old story. The steering wheel is already cracking and deforming. The seats are already pretty worn out. The car has already been in the shop 3 times for faulty window regulators. In other words - it's just like everything else the Big 3 produces: the look nice and hold up OK for maybe 2-3 years before falling apart.
The bottom line is that the big 3 don't know how to build cars that last. I seldom see 20 year old Buicks on the road, and if I do, the cars are absolutely falling apart. But I do see literally thousands of Hondas and Toyotas from the 80's that are still going strong. That's the difference.
Me and most other people do not buy that Domestic automakers build good cars. If they did we would be driving them.
I think the problem with the "Buy USA!" argument is that it's an antiquated argument. Companies are truly global entities. Back in the good ole' days Ford would import raw iron ore, wood, and paint and produce the entire car in one spot. Back then "Made in USA" actually meant it was really made entirely in the USA.
Today every car out there is composed of parts from all around the world. Cars are even designed and engineered in countries far from corporate headquarters. The new Camaro was designed and engineered in Australia. It is being built in Canada. But a lot of the components are imported from China, Mexico, Brazil, and the US.
The same is true with most Toyota and Honda products. They are designed and engineered in studios and engineering facilities around the world. Their components - like those in GM and Ford products - are also imported from various countries.
Additionally, car companies have management teams that are just as international as their cars. The former chief of product design at Lexus is an American and now works for Ford. GM has major facilities in China with Chinese executives. Thus from the worker all the way up to the top of the company you have money flowing in from an international buyer with that money benefiting countless communities around the globe: American, Mexican, Chinese, and so on.
Thus it's sort of a simplistic argument to boast that just because a product you bought has a US branded sticker on it means that you are supporting US workers. The exact same is true with someone buying a Toyota or Honda. They too are helping to benefit US workers, as well as workers in other countries. What most people making the "Buy USA!" argument fail to recognize is that if you put money into the pockets of people in other countries, then they will in turn have the funds to buy goods and services from us in return. If products were really and truly entirely built in the USA with US laborers, (which they haven't in years) and all US citizens did was buy American goods, then we would not have a functioning economy.
A good analogy to make is the early 20th century textile industry. For 100 years prior it had been primarily located up in Northern states where the biggest textile companies in the world existed. They owned entire towns and had huge factories with 10's of thousands of workers. But over time these factories became too cumbersome and inefficient. Additionally wages were too high. At that time newer, leaner factories opened down South where labor was cheaper. Factories up north closed down. 100 years later most of those Southern factories are now shut down and the work has gone to China for the same reasons it left the North and now the South. That's how capitalism works. In many ways you could compare GM and Ford - once the world's largest automakers with the world's largest factories to Toyota and Honda whom came out with better models and better manufacturing processes that were leaner and more efficient and who later setup factories in cheaper Southern states.
Soon we will have new players in the field: Indian and Chinese cars, who in turn will undercut the Korean and Japanese automakers in price and start the cycle all over again.
So the way to look at it is that we live in a global economy. People learn to adapt just as all those textile workers later did. We will have to do the same.
"1) The Fusion IS the highest rated car in CR's projected reliability listings. It beats Camry, Accord and Altima... PERIOD. No "opinion" there, just FACT."
The Ford Fusion was introduced in 2005. Thus it has only been on the market for 4 years, which isn't long enough to prove any kind of real-life reliability ratings. But the engine in it is derived from the same engine used in the Mazda Protoge, which has had a history of faulty intake manifolds and EGR valves. Thus going on that alone, I'd say stay away from it until its actually been out there long enough to make a factual call on reliability.
The Camry has been in continuous production since 1980 - almost 30 years - and has had an almost solid streak of outright stellar reliability with the exception of a limited number of 2006 V6, 6 speed, US-built models which has since been corrected.
2) A Buick and a Ford tied for best LONG-TERM reliability (NOT initial quality, which doesn't make a HOOT of difference over the long run) in J.D. Powers reliability survey of long-term required repairs. Again, just fact.
-Again- these numbers are more like 2 and 3 year reliability. Hardly what I would call "Long term". Long term to me means more like 7-10 years.
3) The longest lasting truck featured in CR's article on long-lasting vehicles was a FORD. It had gone 488,000 trouble-free miles. Again, A fact.
Back when I bought my Tacoma the dealer took me around back to take a peek at their late 80's Toyota delivery truck. It had 520,000 miles on it and had yet to have even the valve covers removed. I saw this in person. So at least one Toyota truck has that many miles. One of my buddies has a 95 Tacoma with close to 450,000 miles. No problems so far.I've been on blogs where Toyota owners regularly have 300,00, 400,000 miles or more. In other words, it's quite common for Toyota get extremely high amounts of miles no problem. But we sort of expect that and it's nothing unusual or amazing. The trucks are bulletproof, hence no proof needed.
4) The Ford F-150 is in its 30th year as the best selling full-sized truck. Tundra is struggling just to hang on.
Yes, well Ford has been making this truck for almost 50 years. The Tundra came out in 2001. Given those facts, the Tundra sells quite well.
5) Both Honda and Toyota have had NUMEROUS problems in recent years. CR pulled its "recommended" rating of the Camry in 2008 because of poor reliability. The Camry is STILL rated only "average". The Fusion is 2 full ratings HIGHER. Again, no speculation, just FACT.
That's rather vague. Still doesn't really mean anything since quality reports still shows Ford, GM, and Chrysler below the avg quality and reliability ratings of the big 2 Japanese automakers and their divisions. Again - the Fusion is a new car with no long term track record.
6) No Toyota or Honda has EVER made it to the "million mile club". That means vehicles that are still running the same engine and transmission after 1,000,000 miles. Both Ford and Cadillac have made this milestone.
The highest miles acquired on a Toyota is a 1991 Toyota 2WD with a 22r engine documented at over one million miles and still going strong.
7) Personal experience matters when the numbers give sufficient data (consult any qualified statistician). Out of over 30 domestics owned by our family, NONE, not ONE, required a repair to the engine or transmission before 100,000 miles. ALL THREE of our imports had MASSIVE engine problems before 100,000 miles. The mathematical odds of that are out of the realm of pure coincidence. Getting 30 "unusual" good domestics and 3 "bad" imports is stretching the limits of reality. Conclusion: The domestics were better... PERIOD.
My family has also had scads of cars. We had a Chevy Malibu, Olds 88', a Buick Riviera, a 95' Ford F-250, and a Ford Ranger. Of all of these, only the Ranger was halfway acceptable. The others had short, unreliable lives with massive amounts of mechanical and electrical problems. The Buick was so bad that the dealer actually agreed to take it back after a month. On the other hand we have had 2 Camrys, (85 and 92) a 98' Avalon (brother still drives it with 265,000 miles), A 4runner, a 2002 Tundra (Dad still has it with 225,000 miles) a Tacoma (I still drive it with 220,000 miles), an 88' Celica, and a 2002 Prius (Wife drives it now with almost 100,000 miles).
We have never had any major problems with any of the Toyotas we've ever owned. So it's rather curious to me that you claim that ALL the imports you've ever owned (what kind of imports are they?) had problems while all 30 of the domestics you've had were flawless? Somehow I don't buy your story. But I'm sure we're going to hear this same story anytime someone posts a new post about a Tundra. The thing is, if you hate Toyotas so much, then why post comments on Toyota posts? Obviously you aren't going to convince any Toyota owners that Ford Fusions or Dodge Omni are superior. We know better and you're not doing yourself any good trying to make vague arguments.
"Here's the problem with the domestic versus import argument. Its likely split between two very different groups of people. It's a split that Detroit hopefully understands and is working on to rectify."
I have a relative, now retired, that was a mid-level Ford manager in the early 1990's. At that time he told me Ford had solid market research that had everyone in Ford convinced that there was a sizable part of the American population that would never buy a Ford, GM, or Dodge product for the rest of their lives because of reliability problems from the 70's and 80's. So I would say they have a pretty good understanding of the situation.
On a lot of things, people decide their brand preferences between the age of 20 and 30 and never change. To understand the phenomena, ask someone 50 or 60 years old who they vote for president, ask why a few times, and just wait for how long it is before they start talking about Richard Nixon or Jimmy Carter. You'll be asking yourself, "Does this person have any idea what has been going on in the country for the last five years?" It's kind of the same with cars.
The biggest factor to me in the domestic versus Japanese car debate is the huge number of American citizens who are being hurt by the "It doesn't hurt the U.S. economy to buy Japanese" argument. It has a ripple effect. If you buy a Toyota or Honda you are not helping ANYONE in the U.S., not even YOURSELF.
If imports are as bad as you say they are, couldn't the million of auto workers get a job repairing them? I'm an import fan, every American car I've owned has failed me. I've never had a problem with imports. They last longer, they're built better, and when you sell them, they're actually worth something.
If you really abuse a car, any car, it's obviously going to break at some point. The fact of the matter is, every car should be able to take some abuse, but you should never abuse a car to its breaking point and then say it's the cars fault.
"15:03" Finally somebody else who gets it. Like whatever you wanna like. It's really annoying how everybody is bad-mouthing domestics or bad-mouthing imports. Every car brand has its strengths and weaknesses. Imports provide quality, dependability, and value at a higher price. Domestics provide these same things, just for a shorter amount of time. If you drive your cars for 60,000 miles and then dump them, buy a domestic. It'll save you money at the beginning. If you drive your cars for 100K+ miles, buy an import. You'll pay more at the beginning but you'll save money on maintenance costs in the long run. For those of you who owned a Honda or a Toyota in the past and had problems, you got a lemon. You can't say an entire company is crap just because of one car. EVERY CAR MANUFACTURER PRODUCES A LEMON ONCE IN AWHILE.
Nice to have a decent warranty, better than most imports. I left Honda over major issues on a now 40k model.
"The biggest factor to me in the domestic versus Japanese car debate is the huge number of American citizens who are being hurt by the "It doesn't hurt the U.S. economy to buy Japanese" argument. It has a ripple effect. If you buy a Toyota or Honda you are not helping ANYONE in the U.S., not even YOURSELF."
Untrue. The kids next door to us when I was growing up in TN had a Dad who worked at the Smyrna Nissan plant outside of Nashville. All the Nissans that came out of there had little Tennessee flag stickers on the windows. These cars were built in a community near us and Nissan poured (and continues to pour) money into the community. Last I heard Nissan is going to start manufacturing batteries and electric cars there.
The family next to us had their own house, 2 cars, and 2 kids in school. The wages he made at Nissan paid for their living expenses. So the opposite of what you're saying is true: When we bought a Nissan, it helped our literal next door neighbors. Somehow your argument doesn't really work.
I'm sorry for those in Detroit who lost their jobs. But had Detroit and the companies that employed them made better decisions and designed better vehicles, they wouldn't have lost their jobs. So if you want to look for blame, don't blame the consumer.
"Today every car out there is composed of parts from all around the world. Cars are even designed and engineered in countries far from corporate headquarters. The new Camaro was designed and engineered in Australia. It is being built in Canada. But a lot of the components are imported from China, Mexico, Brazil, and the US."
With people thinking like this, it is no wonder our economy is in dire straights. REGARDLESS of WHERE a car is built, 91% of the auto related jobs in the U.S. were dependent on the DOMESTIC auto industry (as of May, 2009). Thanks to reasoning like that shown above, the number now is now closer to 86%. When people think 86% is no larger a number than 14%, our country is in dire straits indeed. People who actually hope for the destruction of 86% of U.S. auto related jobs need to look at what this kind of thinking is doing to tens of thousands of our friends and neighbors.