Comments: 1-15, 16-23
My wife leased the Sienna after test driving every other van out there. She still loves the van. Problem is, we developed a sludge problem at 18000 miles. We had had three oil changes by this time, within the warranty terms, based on her driving style. I was called a liar by the dealership. I offered them receipts, they told me they were probably falsified by someone I know who changes oil. This from customer service. Their "800" number was no better, said that lack of receipts would not invalidate my warranty, but they will still back the dealer. Told then it must have been inferior oil. Anyone else use Jiffy Lube to have oil changes? Now at 34000 miles, just waiting for the engine to lock. NEVER NEVER NEVER will I own, drive, test drive another Toyota.
This seems very questionable, as Toyota has a new SPA that allows free sludge repairs if the owner simply shows 1 oil change receipt for every year owned.
Toyota says that they mailed letters to all 3.3 million owners of the Sienna, Celica, Solara, Camry, Highalander, Avalon, RX300, ES300 to tell them about the 8 year unlimited mileage policy on sludge, but I have been skeptical of this because many many people I know never go this letter. This came out in April 2002. It seems like you did not get your letter, either. Call Toyota again and tell them about your problem. They claim that they will reimburse you for the costs of your repairs and any incidental costs (rental car, etc.) when you send in the receipts, proof of ownership and proof of at least one oil change per year before the sludge occurred. You still have every right to be unhappy with your vehicle, though. It likely has the exact same engine (they typically only clean the sludge) and could be subject to sludge again. In mid-2002, Toyota started putting a new valve cover and new PCV system on sludged vehicles to help prevent sludging. You may want to insist on getting these new parts put in free of charge, too. Good luck to you.
First let me say that I work for a Toyota dealer, so my information should be the most current. When Toyota introduced this Special Policy Adjustment (SPA, similar to 1990-95 4Runner's head gasket problem) on every model mentioned in the above comment, they were strict about the specifications through which vehicles would be eligible. However, I had a customer last month that had 98000 miles on her Avalon, and could only produce 3 service records in the past few years. Toyota not only took care of every repair related to the oil gelling (it ended up needing a block- Toyota took care of everything, including rental and towing), but the owner did not have to produce much evidence to get this approved. Not every owner received a notice of this SPA (notice, not "campaign") because not every vehicle will be affected. In fact, we estimate that fewer than 1% will actually have sludge. My suggestion to frustrated Toyota owners is this- first of all, keep up on maintenance. Have at least one oil change every 7500 miles. Also, have at least one service done at a dealer every 15000 miles, so that it looks like you are making an effort. Save every record- if you service the car yourself, but Toyota oil filters and save the receipts. If you think you have gelling (a master mechanic at any dealer can inspect the substance and tell), and the dealer you typically deal with has been no help, patronize another dealer. If that doesn't work, talk to the service manager and have them set up an appt. with the regional service director. Typically, they have authority to make decisions that individual dealers cannot. Do not give up- Toyota is the best quality vehicle made, as long as one services the it correctly.
Toyota claimed that they mailed their letter on the special policy to ALL owners of 1997 through 2002 Toyota Sienna, Avalon, Camry, Celica, Solara, Highlander and Lexus RX300 and ES300 because these vehicles have the same engine and all can succumb to sludge. It is obvious that they are back-tracking now. But Toyota reps said in several news releases, articles and message boards that ALL of these owners, 3.3 million of them, would get those letters.
Most people think that the real problem is the maintenance schedule presented in the owners manual. The manual states that the oil needs to be changed every 7500 miles unless the owner PRIMARILY drives on dusty roads, PRIMARILY tows heavy loads or PRIMARILY drives with frequent stops and starts in below freezing temperatures. If you meet these conditions, then you are to change your oil at the severe service interval of 5000 miles. Most experts claim that the way to avoid sludge in these engines is to change the oil every 3000 miles or, in some cases and as recommended by the Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association, changes may need to be much more frequently such as every 1,000 miles. Apparently these engines are very sensitive to developing sludge.
I'm so depressed. I LOVE (d) my Sienna. But now we've gotten into this "engine sludge" problem. The car is 1 year old, has 13,000 miles, had oil changes at 6,000 & 13,000 miles - yet our mechanic (not a Toyota dealership) says he's never seen this kind of sludge in a vehicle with this many miles. Took it to the Toyota dealership (because the repair should be under warranty) and have gotten denial/run-around/blame at every turn. It wasn't until our mechanic spoke with a buddy mechanic at another Toyota dealership that we discovered there was an acknowledged "engine sludge problem" with this vehicle.
We never received the letter that was supposedly sent out in Feb 2002 (we bought our new Sienna 12/26/01) to owners of affected vehicles. I've contacted the customer assistance number Toyota set up for this problem and have been assigned a "case number" and even got a call from a "caseworker". That was a month ago. We have left repeated messages on the answering machine of the number the "caseworker" gave us, but have not been contacted since. Meanwhile, we aren't driving the Sienna and are hesitant to have the repairs done (is this problem going to recur constantly?) until Toyota tells us what they are going to do about the problem.
I've tried twice to get Toyota to send me a copy of the letter that was sent out last February, and they always say they will - but haven't received it yet.
Anyone have any suggestions? I've owned a Toyota since 1975 (a Toyota minivan since 1991), and I've loved them, but this may be my last one.
I feel your frustration! I went through the same on my 2000 Sienna at around 15000 miles. I was denied warranty coverage and paid for repairs myself, but was later reimbursed by Toyota.
There were actually two sludge policies. The first came out in Feb. 2002 and was a limited free repair from one year of the date of the letter announcing the policy. It was called the Special Policy Adjustment, or SPA. The letter was to be mailed to every owner of 1997 - 2001 Toyota Camry, Celica, Avalon, Highlander, Solara, and Sienna and Lexus RX-300 and ES-300. Because of the limits on the policy, owners were not happy and Toyota came back out with a new policy sometime around April 2002, called the Customer Support Program (or Policy, not sure which). This new policy extended the program to 2002 vehicles, so you are covered), extended the time to 8 years from original purchase of the vehicle and also provided reimbursement for other incidental expenses such as rental car. The original SPA letter mailing was halted and a new CSP letter was to be mailed to all owners of 1997 - 2002 affected models. I suspect (and you confirm) that these letters were not all mailed. I personally know too many Toyota owners who did not get them for it to be just a coincidence. Both the SPA and CSP cover the repair costs for your engine.
Your dealership knows about this policy. They received letters and notices on it. You will find discussion of it on nearly every Toyota message board at one time or another. Just try a web search for Toyota Engine Sludge using the google. com search engine and you will be surprised at all you find!
You can find a scanned copy of the original SPA on the website nhtsa. gov under "Problems and Issues" then "Technical Service Bulletins" You also may want to go to the website edmunds. com and do a search for "sludge" in their discussion groups. There are several sludge discussions, but one was started by Toyota corporate to answer questions on the policy. The forum started sometime around April 2002. Both the nhtsa scanned document the edmunds discussion give phone numbers at corporate Toyota that you can call. Another site where you can find information is yotarepair. com (go to the "Sludge Zone").
I really don't know what else to tell you except that you SHOULD have received a letter from Toyota about this. With your two oil changes you SHOULD be covered 100% for repairs and rental car. It is very disappointing to me that Toyota is still denying this problem almost a year after the first policy coming out. I had really had a change of heart about the company because of their policies, but if it was just "hush money" for people who complained a year ago and is nothing now, well, I am having a change of heart again, this time for the worst. Like you, I absolutely loved my Sienna, thought I was buying into the Toyota reputation of sound quality cars. Little did I know. I wish you luck and hope that Toyota comes through for you. Let us know.
It's funny how people know exactly how many letters were supposed to be sent out to owners, yet do not know how often to do an oil change. Were you to ask any dealership, and they would tell you every 3000-4000 miles depending on driving conditions, but not much more. It also amazes me how people do not research more on how to care for a $30000 investment such as a car or minivan, but as soon as they are asked to buy an engine for it because they used the wrong oil or did not change it often enough, they are searching every internet portal for legal arbitration methods and other angry owners to complain with. My Camry now has over 200000 miles on it, and I asked the dealer how often oil should be changed before taking any chances. They told me every 3750, and I have not gone over that yet. And strangely enough, I haven't had a sludge problem. Imagine that.
Who to believe, the engineers who designed your engine or the maintenance repair guy who profits from you coming into his shop as frequently as possible so he can sell you everything under the sun in addition to required servicing?
If you check your owner's manual, which has the required maintenance as prescribed by the Toyota engineers who designed the engine, you will find that the oil change interval for Toyota's is 5000 miles if you primarily drive on dusty dirt roads, tow heavy loads or do frequent stops and starts in sub-freezing temperatures. If you do not PRIMARILY drive under these conditions, then the interval is 7,500 miles.
Did the design engineers make a mistake? Maybe so if you are saying more frequent oil changes are needed to prevent sludge. But I have difficulty having any confidence in the guy who profits most from this. If this is really a problem, wouldn't the design engineers just write new maintenance guidelines?
Point taken about mechanics wanting to make money and sell everything possible on vehicles that come through the shop, but most Toyota mechanics (and any mechanic, for that matter) cringe when sludge vehicles need overhaul work. It is safe to say that any mechanic would rather maintain a vehicle that repair it. Sludge causes impossible buildup on some internal components which makes it hard to disassemble and requires additional time to clean thoroughly. Furthermore, when sludge occurs, it is mostly on vehicles that are not taken care of regularly; therefore, some parts may be rusted together and other factors may come into play which make it harder to work on. To top that off, Toyota is taking care of these repairs under warranty (contrary to other comments on this site, but if they read the policy and set dealers straight, it will be) which means that mechanics are only being paid warranty times instead of flat rate time. There, three good reasons why Toyota mechanics do not encourage ignorance when it comes to maintenance. Listen to your mechanics, people; they work on cars all day, every day and they know best. The maintenance guide is for people who forget when and why to do oil changes and other services. Please, do oil changes every 3750 and tire rotations every other time. You will not be disappointed if you follow this schedule. Thank you.
I did not realize that Toyota dealerships did not get as much for warranty repairs as they do for ones paid for by the owner. That certainly explains a lot of the denial Toyota owners with sludged engines are experiencing! I have read all sorts of horror stories. Technicians are calling sludged engines everything, but "sludged engines" so that it is not covered under the policy and the owner must pay. One Corolla owner had his car cleaned of sludge when it was under warranty and 20,000 miles later (12 DAYS OUT OF Warranty) the engine fails due to a thrown rod and the dealership will not compensate this owner one penny! There is no incentive for these dealerships to fix these engines under the policy. They lie and say that there is no warranty and try to charge the owner then the owner has to find out on the internet about the policy and go back and argue the case. How many customers are being screwed and never find out about the repair policy?!?!?!?
Very true; it is shameful how mechanics do not want to own up to verifiable sludge problems, simply because it puts less money in their pocket. But by calling the Toyota customer service center at (800) 334-4334, you can report dealers that are being stingy with the SPA on the affected vehicles. But please, keep up on maintenance and save your local mechanic the pain of working on a sludge victim. He or she will be glad you did.
Does anyone know how to tell if an engine is developing sludge without drain the oil out?
We own a 01 sienna, had oil changed every 5000Miles at Toyota dealer, and not yet heard anything wrong.
Should there be symptoms?
Such as: slow at start up? warming up too slowly?
We also smell slight gasoline starting up cold. My MKIs did it, and other old cars, but I didn't really expect a 2000+ car to do this. ( they have like multi- injecting.. stuff right? )
We had our engine rapaired for the sludge problem in July of 2002. We changed the oil religiously. Two weeks ago the engine started to make a terrible noise. Toyota tells us our engine is shot and we need to pay 5,000 in repairs!
Signs of sludge:
1. Using a lot of oil.
2. Smoke, usually described as blue, from exhaust on start-up.
3. Check engine light.
4. Signs of sludge on oil cap or dipstick. Signs are black goo, or black dried chunks.
Toyota should be compensating ALL Toyota owners with problems. They get a lot of money from the millions who buy their cars and we get this in return. They should take of all costs and Toyota mechanics should shut up and fix. It was all because of Toyota that we're facing this problem.
Toyota services have been somewhat poor. Our dealer kept delaying us because of delayed parts. I'm hoping that the newer 3.3L V6 available in some newer Toyota/Lexus and the existing 3.0L V6 in the Avalon, Camry LE V6, Camry XLE V6, and various others will be fixed.