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Comments: 1-15, 16-30, 31-45, 46-60, 61
"they aren't making enough money to pay their mortgages. And why is that? In many cases because their companies have cut back due to foreign companies taking away their business. Banks are failing because people can't work and pay their bills."
It is fairly well documented that the reasons for the mortgage crisis and the associated bank failures were that many of the mortgages should never have been written and underwritten in the first place + higher energy prices. Energy prices drove up costs to those who were too close to the margin, who had too much mortgage for their incomes. People will usually give up shelter before food... thus the foreclosure spike. Enough banks were invested in real estate to cause real hurt when values began to fall.
All of this has been hashed over at length in business publications. While your points are valid, they probably don't represent the PRIMARY movers behind this particular recession. Otherwise I mostly agree and have been trying to buy American for several years now.
Oh, come on, give the poor dog a Porsche!! Just be sure to wrap his leash around the emergency brake so he won't jump out when he sees a cat!!
"Ad Hype? Myth? Who's quoting ads? The "myths" are based on surveys (some of the same ones that you picked individual results from) and personal experiences. Ford had ads touting their quality. Why didn't THEY work?"
In the 90's Toyota started running a series of ads for the Camry that showed a broken down Taurus being towed in the background in every ad. I'm sure your psychologist relative is just as familiar with the effects of subliminal cues as I am. It was no coincidence that after these ads were run people somehow started "remembering" seeing broken down Fords everywhere. Ironically, they could never remember WHERE or WHEN. In 30 years of driving I've seen exactly ONE Taurus broken down on the side of the road. It was very old and probably had 400,000 miles on it. The only cars that have ever left me or my wife stranded on the road were both Toyotas.
In addition, there is no RELIABLE source to truly prove reliability other than frequency of repair records, and Japanese car companies are not about to release those. Virtually every magazine and rating service in the U.S. is heavily biased toward anything not made by American companies and any time one of them DOES praise an American car it HAS to be far better than they admit. For some reason that I have never been able to fathom, ANYTHING American is considered inferior by Americans. This is sad, because it is currently destroying the lives of millions of our fellow citizens.
I've owned and worked on Japanese and American cars. The structural components of the Japanese cars are horribly under-engineered. Brakes are smaller, axle shafts are smaller and frame components are smaller (and NO, they are NOT magically STRONGER because they are Japanese metal!)
Our Japanese cars required brake pads twice to three times as often as our domestics. The bodies were flimsier and the interiors not nearly as durable. Japanese cars have for decades been shown to be less safe in crashes than comparable domestics. One of our dear friends was killed when the "crumple zones" in her Acura crumpled all the way back into the passenger compartment and crumpled HER. The Ford she hit was DRIVEN HOME.
If people choose to believe any well-ingrained myth it is virtually impossible to persuade them to see the truth with any number of facts or examples. If people choose to follow the subliminally embedded information in Japanese car ads, no amount of facts will ever change them. At least the German car companies are honest. The basic message of BMW and Mercedes ads is simply "We cost a lot and if you buy us people will think you're important".
15:47.
The claim was that this was "long ago" and that it was both Ford AND GM. I would have no problem with the claim that Ford has reached at least parity with Honda and Toyota recently. GM has some great cars, but taken as a total, their average is still sub-par. The change for Ford is also recent not "long ago". "Consumer Reports" documents some of these changes. JD Power does as well.
The Fusion is a VERY good car. It has proven to be at least equal or better in reliability than its Japanese rivals. But the statement can only be proven by a corporate average not by several good cars made by a certain manufacturer. I just think that a broad statement like "Not only that, but both GM and Ford long ago matched or surpassed the build quality of vehicles made by Japanese or German companies" deserves an accurate response. There is no one who rates these corporations' average reliability that agrees with it... at least none that has been quoted.
Do they build some superior vehicles? Absolutely. But the statement was general, inferring that American vehicles are better across the board and have been for a long time. This is simply insupportable hyperbole.
"Do they build some superior vehicles? Absolutely. But the statement was general, inferring that American vehicles are better across the board and have been for a long time. This is simply insupportable hyperbole."
Personal experience trumps possibly biased general "surveys" (and definitely biased magazine writers) hands down. We are a multi-car family and generally own 3 to 5 cars at any given time. Over the past 37 years we have owned over 30 domestics from all three of the U.S. auto makers and 3 imports. Not a one of the domestics ever required a repair before 100,000 miles and a number of them were driven well beyond 200,000 miles. None, NOT ONE, ever had an engine or transmission replaced or had any major repairs.
On the flip side, our imports were poorly made, unreliable, much more expensive to repair and NOT ONE made it to 100,000 miles without major repairs (including the "god" of imports, Honda, which was scrapped at 99,000 miles). Sorry, but ad hype will never convince me that imports were EVER superior to domestics. 30+ good domestics and 3 totally unreliable imports is enough proof for me. Do the math. What are the odds of just randomly buying 30 domestic vehicles that ALL happened to be exemplary and above the norm, while all three imports just happened to be the "rare" unreliable ones?
"Do the math. What are the odds of just randomly buying 30 domestic vehicles that ALL happened to be exemplary and above the norm, while all three imports just happened to be the "rare" unreliable ones?"
I've done the math on all of your ownership and mileage claims here and elsewhere; they don't add up. However, if in fact you have had such good luck with your Domestics, that is the only compelling part of your commentary -- for those who know you. 30 good 0 bad is a good record. 3 bad imports? That isn't compelling. That COULD have been a fluke.
But lets say you are right for now; that 1 person's experience trumps that of the "biased" 1000 of a survey. That means that I should never buy another domestic because I've had more trouble with them than imports I've owned. I've maintained them well and exactly the same. Yet I think that my experience is too narrow and think that domestics can indeed be a good choice. Your approach is unreasonably myopic.
It's true; personal experience is the most compelling aspect of our own decision making. But you are trying to say that your experience is universal, more valuable than surveys, and convincing proof that even us strangers, who haven't likewise had such good luck as you, should heed. Why? We don't know you. So I'd much rather read a "possibly biased survey" than a definitely biased individual.
The truth is obvious. You are completely unable to support any of the claims you made in the first post I began responding to. For example:
"Not only that, but both GM and Ford long ago matched or surpassed the build quality of vehicles made by Japanese or German companies." Now we get to know that the authority behind this general statement is simply your experience. Why can't you confine your comments to your experiences with vehicles that you own or have owned? There's no need to tell everyone else what to buy. They can make up their own minds using theirs, yours, and others' experiences to help guide them.
Tell us about your Fusion. Tell us about your Mustang. Tell us about your Envoy. Etc. I don't, however, want to be told what to think about the info.
As for your claims about "subliminal messages"; No I don't remember those ads, nor for that matter, do I remember seeing any Tauruses on the side of the road (I'm sure I've seen a few considering how many were sold). But all the stuff purporting that "quality is job 1" didn't work? Ads are DESIGNED to be compelling, but YOUR claim is that the Japanese ads worked and the American ads didn't because the Japanese ones were were "subliminal". What about the seriously front-brained message shown when the Ford emblem is being polished? I liked it. I even thought it was compelling. But that MUST NOT have worked because the Japanese are selling so many cars. Hmmm. Backward logic.
Subliminal messages are of dubious value anyway according to everything I've heard or read of late. Relying on THAT for an explanation is much like explaining gold with alchemy.
12:55.
I see... EVERYTHING is evidence that you are right. If I DID remember, it would be proof. If I didn't... gosh it COULDN'T just be because I didn't see it or just misplaced it in my memory... it MUST be because I saw it and it worked really, really good. THAT WAY YOU CAN BE RIGHT NO MATTER WHAT! This is particularly funny because I think that Tauruses are pretty good cars. Fusions are even better.
Your last post carried no proofs. You simply reasserted your position. Then you went about discrediting anyone who might disagree based on a scenario that is a total fabrication of possible but unproven points. I could likewise claim that YOU are a victim of ads that you don't remember. That your preoccupation with domestic cars is strictly based on prejudice... not facts. I COULD say that I'm a mechanic. I COULD claim to be a therapist. Heck I could claim to be anything at all in an effort to further my point.
BUT IT WOULD BE UNFAIR. IT WOULD ALSO BE UNTRUE. Perhaps I'm breaking the seminal rule of blogging... the truth puts me at a disadvantage. My claims aren't mathematically impossible (or at least unlikely). They aren't inconsistent. They aren't positioned like a pundit's would be. I don't take a hard position and I am perfectly willing to admit my human tendency toward inaccuracy. BUT I NEED PROOF.
You say that I'm a victim of ad hype? Prove it.
You say that the surveys are flawed simply because there is a possible mechanism for such a thing. Prove it.
You suggest that I think that anything American workers make is crap. You'll have a really tough time proving that one. I own two American vehicles right now and wouldn't buy from the Japanese because American manufacturing needs customers.
I DO think that the Japanese EARNED their reputation the old fashioned way. Until you are able to prove otherwise, no amount of pseudopsychological conjecture will save your point.
The truth remains that you haven't presented us with anything outside of your own experience to back up your claims about Ford and GM long ago surpassing the imports. Ford is doing very well (a recent thing). GM still has a ways to go. This is based on surveys taken in various manners, by different organizations. My own experience furthers the data. BUT I WILL STILL ONLY BUY AMERICAN.
Finally, you will no doubt be thrilled to hear that I will no longer argue with you. I've thoroughly repudiated all of your points on other threads only to see you resurrect them elsewhere. There is no point. You are busily destroying this site's value. For you and others this is all about rhetoric, not information. If someone posts some information about their Japanese vehicle, you either do an "I told you so" or a "mine is better" response. You and others sit on here repeating the same old worn out canards. You don't prove your points; You simply repeat them. So I suspect that many will do (and have done) what I now choose to do and leave you to yourself.
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steven@carsurvey.org
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Could the two previous commenters please take a deep breath and calm down a little.
Things are getting too personal here, especially since I suspect you agree on many things (like buying American).
Discussion is fine, but this is in the end an Internet forum, where unless I enforce very strict editorial control, there are going to be people and arguments that you disagree with, or just plain think are misinformed.
If you make your point and you end up in an argument with what seems to be the same few people, it's probably the case that the best thing you can do is move on, having said your piece (once or twice is probably enough). Likewise if you start to take a personal dislike to other commenters. Far more heat is likely being generated than light in those cases. The long comment threads only happen when there are willing participants on both sides.
The above isn't a set of rules that I'm setting down, just some advice to perhaps make the experience of using the site more pleasant.
Steven Jackson
steven@carsurvey.org
But I paid for the full 1/2 hour argument.
It is amazing that there are such strong feelings regarding imports and domestics here in the USA, especially when it seems that all vehicles are global in one way or another.
Please remember that GM, Ford & Chrysler do have operations beyond the borders of the United States, and they also have participated in many joint ventures with foreign automakers, and in many cases owned a percentage of these companies.
Also, please remember that many of those Fords, Chevy's and Chryslers that you drive ARE built beyond the borders of the USA - Canada & Mexico seems to be a favorite place for the "Big Three" to build factories. At the same time these "foreign" automakers have been building more & more vehicles in this country.
I frequently see the argument that although these companies are employing Americans to build their cars, to many people that doesn't matter because they argue "the profits are going out of this country". Doesn't this argument cut both ways?
One final question to ponder - With GM selling off many of their brands, the one perhaps most associated with the USA, mom, apple pie, the freedom to drive wherever and whatever you want - Hummer, is being sold to a Chinese company.
This obviously is helping GM survive, but other than Jeep what other brand screams patriotism?
What will all of this anti-import people say to that?
My feeling is that because this is the United States of America, American's should have the right to decide for themselves what that want to drive. How can driving a Toyota built in this country be any less patriotic than driving a Canadian Chevy? American corporations buy from foreign companies, and out-source overseas, don't they?
(In case you are wondering - I own one domestic vehicle built in Ohio, and an import which is owned by GM)
It's been stated repeatedly, and apparently needs to continue being stated: The U.S. auto industry employs 91% of all auto-related workers in the U.S. In addition, they have very heavy involvement in other very important sectors of the U.S. economy. Regardless of where GM, Ford and Chrysler sell cars, they are STILL a U.S. company providing jobs for U.S. AND foreign citizens. Yes, Japanese companies have plants here. Overall they employ only 9% of the entire auto-related work force in the U.S. The profits from the sales of Japanese cars goes to Japan, not the U.S.
Any time a U.S. citizen purchases a product from a foreign-owned company, he or she is taking jobs away from American citizens. If Americans would return to even a modest degree of patriotism our economy would recover very quickly. Because a foreign company employs 9% of the people in that industry in this country it basically means that buying from them hurts 91% of our people. That is a pretty good argument for supporting American industry. I will continue driving this point home as long I keep seeing comments stating that buying from foreign companies doesn't matter. It DOES matter to the 91% who work for American auto makers.
I wrote the comment on 3rd Jun 2009, 13:08.
I should add that what I am trying to say, is that the entire issue of domestic vs. imports is not black and white, although it seems many are trying to make it that. When in fact it is many shades of gray.
To - 4th Jun 2009, 10:47
If the US Auto Industry employs 91% of the auto workers in the USA, buying an import does not hurt "91% of our people", this would be the case only if EVERY man, woman and child in this country were employed by the US auto industry.
Your math doesn't add up, just as your black & white logic doesn't apply to this issue.
"If the US Auto Industry employs 91% of the auto workers in the USA, buying an import does not hurt "91% of our people", this would be the case only if EVERY man, woman and child in this country were employed by the US auto industry."
It's estimated that 10% of ALL jobs in the U.S. are related to the auto industry. OK, so buying a Japanese car only hurts 9.1% of U.S. citizens. Hope that puts your conscience at ease.
10:47, are you saying the 9% of Americans that found jobs building Hondas, Toyotas, or whatever don't count or don't matter?
What about all of the Americans that work in import dealerships, or work for parts suppliers for imports.
That is pretty narrow-minded thinking in my book.
By the way, where was your TV made? Your microwave? Your MP3 player? How about he computer that you are writing your comments from? What about the gasoline that you are burning in your American car?