Comments: 1-15, 16-30, 31-45, 46-60, 61-75, 76-90, 91-105, 106-120, 121-135, 136
May 14, 2007: I am the next victim of the failed timing chain. At 75,000 miles, the engine had only ever had Synthetic Oil and the Saturn Technician commented on how clean the inside was. Given my automotive engineering background, I (like many of you) also know how most of the NHTSA and OEM Technical Service Bulletin processes work.
I learned of the NHTSA investigations, the TSB and gained access to all the data GM had to supply the NHTSA as part of the investigation. The facts are that GM is aware of a 4 month build window of the Ecotec 2.2L engine in which the timing chain failure rate was 10 times greater than normal, affecting over 25,000 cars. In addition, the Saturn sales force marketed the high durability of the 2.2l metal timing chain as a strength over the 6 cylinder with a Kevlar belt that must be changed at 100k. Most of this was known all the way back in 2002 and the preventive measure of performing the work in the TSB would have been cheaper as compared to a new engine. I would have gladly paid to prevent the cost of a new or rebuilt engine.
The result: I had a great perception of Saturn til now. Saturn made no attempt to inform me and therefore denied me the ability to prevent damage to my property. In addition, I was offended by the treatment toward me, especially as I approached the issue with facts, logic and the openness to resolution. Saturn has lost this customer and GM appears to be sticking to the "trick your customer" approach as opposed to the "keep your customer" approach. Pretty short-sighted.
Saturn offered to pay for half a new engine... still over $3k out of my pocket.
I just heard back from my Saturn dealer today, having had my 2000 LS (with 80k miles) towed to them over the weekend. My parents were visiting for the weekend and backing out of the driveway with my 5 and 2 yr old when they thought the engine sounded off. Sure enough, they're claiming a bad timing belt (although it doesn't sound broken yet), and while they say that all the cylinders have good compression, they're recommending that we replace the head assembly as well, as when the timing belt goes you usually end up with bent valves. They said that they could just replace the timing belt for $900, or replace the head assembly for $2500 (+ tax). The thing that's really bothering me is that we have no way of knowing that the valves are damaged, but if we do the $900 chain replacement and then find that it's not running right, I'd still be hit with the full $2500 after that.
I'm off to register my complain with the NTSA and since it seems like North Carolina was one of the states raising the claims, to see what I can do in my home state, as well.
A competent mechanic should be able to test your engine for compression, and determine if the valves are indeed bent. Yes, this is an interference engine with a timing CHAIN (not a belt, as there seems to be some confusion), so valve bending is a possibility. Still, this isn't difficult to check, so I would find a new mechanic before replacing the entire thing.
My Saturn 2001 L200 has only 24,600 miles on it - yes folks it's the ultimate little old lady mileage - only driven on a Sunday, but it too has suffered the 'timing chain from hell' scenario.
Shortly after it's last NY state inspection, complete with oil change, oil filter change, air filter, etc. The car started to perform slightly sluggishly in low revs, after being driven about 5 miles with no problem and then parked overnight, it refused to start the next morning. I had some amateur mechanic friends look at it - hmmm, ah... some type of fuel problem they all cried out in pride - but nothing - no STP, no battery, no banging, no pumping of the gas... NOTHING would get it going.
I took it to a real mechanic, who hooked it to his computer reader, and he found that the manifold pressure sensor needed replacing, OK let's put in a new one... no good - it runs very roughly - so he looked at plugs... Ugh... well there's the problem - new plugs. Nope, the thing will start, but it has no power at all, and and throttle makes it die away. OK, let's try banging things with a hammer... uh-oh, here we go again...
Onward to mechanic number two, who checks all the same things, except the hammering, but he is an expert mechanic, and does one extra expert thing.
Yes, he does a google search! This is one clever mechanic. He finds this forum, and others listing the timing chain problems many people have had with this vehicle, and I am pretty sure he is on the right track - but his solution is a whole new engine. I personally think that the chain has somehow slipped, not broken. Is that possible? I don't know.
But why a whole new engine? Aren't engines built to be pulled apart and have parts replaced?
Maybe his concern is the cost, maybe it IS cheaper to put in a reconditioned engine than to replace the valves and timing chain assembly - but I don't think that any reconditioned engine is ever going to have as low miles on it as my current engine does. It does actually start now, and idles with no knocking or unusual sounds, but any throttle will make it die and it sure sounds funny then, like it's gasping for air or something. Like, er... well, like it's not properly timed.
Very well described in the comment above. To answer your question, YES it is possible that the timing chain slipped. This will make it run EXTREMELY poorly, but at least run. In most instances the chain breaks completely. This is an interference engine that has the risk of bending valves should the timing belt break. You MAY have bent valves, but maybe not. Have your mechanic check for bent valves. If there are none, consider yourself lucky and replace the chain. PLEASE NOTE that you should NOT attempt to start this engine as you may run the risk of bending more valves.
If you do work on this engine or replace it with another, be aware that there is a new, updated timing chain oiler kit for this engine that corrects this problem in the future. Search for it in google or check the Saturn dealer for the details. Seems the original oiler in this series of Ecotec motors is underdesigned for proper lubrication at low engine speeds. The new kit will solve this problem, and otherwise, the Ecotec line of engines has proven to be quite reliable.
Good luck.
Yesterday I bought a 2002 Saturn L200 with 52K on it, and it runs great!
But I wish I saw this blog first. I bought it from a private party - so I can't return it.
I called Saturn dealers in Massachusetts (Worcester, Lowell, and Norwood). The service managers all said they had never heard of the problem (today is Aug 27, 2007). I told them I wanted to change it, to be on the safe side - but they were not sure of the cost - they had never changed any before? After some calculating - they came up with an $1100 estimate. I asked them all how they could have 412,000 failures and not hear about the issue?
I asked to speak with Saturn support management and was told to have car inspected to see if Timing chain needed to be repaired - and perhaps they could work with me? It cost 400 - 500 for an estimate and none of the dealers have ever seen (or heard) of a broken one - how are they suppose to tell if its worn?
Does anyone know if the 412,000 figure is accurate? And can provide a link to the gov't source?
Thanks,
Steven.
Saturday our dealer maintained and cared for 2000 L300m (54,000 miles) suffered a sudden and completely unexpected timing chain break that will cost hundreds to fix, only to get it to where the dealer (or another reputable shop we also had look at it) will be able to determine if valves and pistons are also damaged. According to both, this is highly likely. In searching tonight, I was shocked to see both the sheer number of similar problems, as well as the fact that Saturn has apparently known of this and offered an upgrade oiler kit (also expensive) as a means of attempting to prevent this serious defect from destroying other motors. The Saturn maintenance schedule clearly states the timing chain should be replaced at 100,000 miles. I, too, would like to know about these 412,000 alleged complaints and how to verify that number. As an attorney, I intend to explore this vigorously.
Before I spent $813 dollars on a timing chain replacement - I wanted to know how many L200's were built (Saturn would not tell me) and I wanted to know how many had broken chains (again - according to Saturn, no one knows - and they say they have no way of finding out).
Their responses to the two NHSTA investigations, their redesign of the components, and their inability to discuss this subject in an honest way... scared me.
I spent the money to fix the car. GM may be willing to play the odds with my family's safety - but I'm not.
If I had known any of this, I would not have gotten a loan, due to the fact that my family's safety comes first. I have only had my 2001 L200 for 2 days, and I have not seen any problems yet besides squeaky brakes, but I will get my new car checked out tomorrow at my auto shop, so thank you to all that put their info on here.
If anyone can be kind enough to keep me posted on what happens with the investigation of GM, it would be great. E-mail me at moneygobbler@gmail.com
Thank you Misty.
I have a 2001 Saturn L200 (seems to be quite the popular car... on here at least!). I took my car in to get a new ignition cylinder/housing . Went to pick up my car (hours after it was originally supposed to be done), and the mechanic started the car... it started up fine. He turned it off to do some paperwork. He got in the car to pull it out of the garage and, low and behold, they come back to tell us that my timing chain has just broken!! First, I'm thinking... you broke it, you fix it. Now, as I'm sitting here thinking about Monday, when I get the nice call from the Area Manager, who knows I'm seeking financial assistance (I didn't know this was a problem with my series of car before speaking to them), I can pretty much predict what he'll have to say to me.
I just wish GM would realize there is a mistake with the car, take the losses, and move on. "Wish" being the key word there.
I have become part of the growing list of timing chain victims. Last week my 2002 Saturn L100 (61,500 miles) lost power while driving on a city street about 5 blocks from a Saturn dealership. I was able to coast into a nearby parking lot where I had it towed to the dealer. They told me today I have four options ranging in price from $2500 to $7000 (not including tax).
I was somewhat more shocked, however, that 412K vehicles have been effected by this, there is a NTHSA investigation underway, NCCC warning, etc. and the only coverage I can find on this defect has been in message board posts, there is no media coverage. No wonder GM is totally unmotivated to do anything.
I would suggest sending ONE, extremely nicely worded, and brief as possible, email or letter to each of the following people explaining your experience and containing links to the warning, technical bulleting, message board threads, etc.
If contacting anyone via email, you may choose to BCC (blind carbon copy) Saturn Media Relations Manager Steve Janissee (steve.janisse@gm.com).
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Dee-Ann Durbin
The Associated Press
Automotive Correspondent
300 River Place Dr, Ste 2400
Detroit, MI 48207-4260
ddurbin@ap.org.
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Lindsay Chappell
Mid-South Bureau Chief
Automotive News
104 Eastpark Dr, Ste 315
Brentwood, TN 37027-7535
lchappell@crain.com
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Ted Evanoff
Automotive Reporter
Indianapolis Star
307 N Pennsylvania St
Indianapolis, IN 46204
ted.evanoff@indystar.com
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Jeff Green
Automotive Reporter
Bloomberg News
27777 Franklin Rd, Ste 1510
Southfield, MI 48034-8265
jgreen16@bloomberg.net
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Katie Merx
Automotive Reporter
Detroit Free Press
600 W Fort St
Detroit, MI 48226
kmerx@freepress.com
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Linda Myers
Managing Editor
Motor News Media Syndicate
7177 Hickman Rd, Ste 11D
Urbandale, IA 50322-4844
mnmedia@qwest.net
I just checked the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration website and it appears that many of you aren't posting your complaints regarding the Saturn Timing chain. Other than receiving information from GM, the driver complaint is the only means for the NHTSA to hear your unhappiness, which may lead to either a recall or a declaration of defect, either of which is good for the consumer. Please consider doing this as soon as you can. Here is the website: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm.
Indeed, when I search complaints by vehicle make, year, etc. is shows exactly "zero" Timing Chain reports. Apparently this 412,000 figure is an urban myth.
I know I posted my timing chain mishap when it happened last week on the NHTSP website. So I'm wondering what is happening to them (or it) if you said that you didn't see any on there. I didn't search for any when I went to the sight, but I do know that I posted one!
The 412,000 number comes from NHTSA. There is an Engineering Analysis that is open on this issue. To find this, go to the NHTSA web site:
Http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/defect/defectsearch.cfm
And search for NHTSA Action Number: EA06009