7th Nov 2008, 13:00

12:10 Your claims of the 302's reliability are simply not the case in my experience, and the experience of everyone I ever knew that had one.

The gas mileage was horrible and the horsepower and torque were pathetic. Look up the numbers. Just sad.

The LTD I grew up driving was nothing more than an underpowered gas guzzler until the head gasket went out at around 40 or 50,000 (original) miles if I remember correctly. The replacement engine, another 302, lost oil pressure and seized up. Both junk, as was every other 302 I ever came in contact with.

Granted, the 3.8 was one of the better engine designs the Big 3 could ever come up with (still not even in the same ballpark as Toyota or Honda design.), but the 302 was garbage. Never should have seen production.

7th Nov 2008, 13:07

12:10 I've argued this point many times on here. Your theories on Toyota's warranty are dead wrong. Plain and simple. Toyota doesn't need a longer warranty to sell cars, because people know how reliable they are, and buy them on that basis. Period. You can't sell a GM or a Ford with a shorter warranty because people have come to understand that the piece of junk WILL break down, and that warranty is the safety net that comes with buying a cheaper, more cheaply constructed automobile. If GM ever built anything as good as Toyota does, and gained a reputation for quality, they wouldn't need the 100,000 mile warranty to sell cars. They know it, and I know it.

7th Nov 2008, 17:03

We are all still waiting for specific examples of those "obvious" differences in domestics and imports. We are also still waiting for specific examples of "cheap" engine design. Something tells me we'll have a LONNNNNNNGGGG wait.

8th Nov 2008, 11:20

I have no issue with GM.

I have no issue with Toyota and Honda.

I do take issue with the way one of the posters is attempting to lump Hyundai in with Toyota and Honda.

Hyundai/Kia are bargain basement A-B cars.

9th Nov 2008, 07:48

Engine oil sludging is definitely a sign of excellent Toyota engineering, not to mention great Honda engineering with their failed transmissions.

9th Nov 2008, 12:12

First of all, the basic engine designs of Japanese imports and domestics are now virtually identical. Most 4's are overhead cam designs using the very same rubber belt to drive them and having mostly identical mechanical components. The same is true of the larger engines as well. Remember, we are in 2008, not 1980.

As for being "embarrassed", I hardly consider being chosen 2008 Car of the Year (Cadillac CTS), American Car of the Year (Malibu), best sport coupe (Mustang), Most reliable (Fusion), highest quality second only to Lexus (Buick) and outperforming Ferrari (2009 Corvette) as an "embarrassment". We should all be so "embarrassed".

What WOULD embarrass me would be having numerous complaints about engine failures (as numerous site list for Toyota) and being referred to as having an "uncharacteristic lapse in quality", as Consumer Reports said of Toyota's Camry and Tundra models.

In regards to Hyundai being put on a par with Toyota and Honda, Hyundai has BEEN on a par with them for years now. Unlike Honda and Toyota, Hyundai has had the confidence in their car's reliability to warranty them for 100,000 miles for quite a few years now. Honda and Toyota are still too uncertain of the profitability of longer warranties to match Hyundai or domestics in that regard. No one who has driven a new Hyundai Sonata could find much of an argument for it being one iota less of a car than Camry or Accord. The new V-8 Hyundai Genesis is so far above and beyond ANYTHING made by Honda and Toyota that there is nothing in their lineup to compare it to. It is aimed at Mercedes territory. Unlike Toyota, Honda and Nissan, Hyundai has gone upward steadily in quality over the years instead of steadily declining.

10th Nov 2008, 22:17

12:12 No. GM and Ford's engine designs are not virtually identical to Toyota and Honda, although every stride those domestics HAVE made has been through trying to imitate Toyota/Honda engine design.

Next.. while I own a Hyundai, and am happy with it, it isn't a Toyota or a Honda. It feels like one, but only after I get 2 or 300,000 miles out of it with no major issues will I be convinced that it's on par with the other imports I mentioned.

I don't know how or why you think Hyundai has caught up to Toyota/Honda, other than your own opinion. Reliability ratings and history dictate otherwise.

By the way, the Ford Fusion is garbage, as all Ford cars of the last 30 years have proven to be. Why it's rated as high as it is, I'll never know. It's a mistake, plain and simple. It's a Ford car. That should be enough to tell anybody what kind of reliability it will show, which is to say poor at best.

And for you guys who keep dredging up problems that Toyota has had, keep in mind that GM and Ford have had SO many more; more serious, more often... there is no comparison. Ford and Chevy are just plain scrap compared to any Toyota. You show me a single problem Toyota has had and I'll show you 35 problems that Ford has had. If you want to play that game, you will surely lose it. As I've said before, think of ANY problem that an automobile can possibly have, type it into a search engine with the word "Ford" behind it and you'll get a mountain of results. I WOULD be embarrassed to drive one, as well as a GM or a Dodge.

It's truly sad that Hyundai can just show up, only a couple of decades old, and all of the sudden make WAY better cars than Ford or GM, who've been around for a century or more. It IS embarrassing.

11th Nov 2008, 06:26

12:12 You say "second only to Lexus"... Here's a news flash. A Lexus is a Toyota. So, at best, (and this isn't even true) your beloved domestics STILL take a backseat to Toyota, which you just said. Thank you for proving my point for me.

11th Nov 2008, 14:52

Yes, Lexus is a Toyota. It also costs twice as much as a Buick.

Since the response was in reference to a comment about how "domestics are embarrassed in print every year" I still think placing a couple of points below a Mercedes-level luxury car costing twice as much is hardly an "embarrassment" to Buick.

It's also interesting to note that the Toyota Solara is in the same category as the Ford Mustang, and the Mustang beat it in overall quality.

In 2007 the Pontiac Grand Prix beat out the Toyota Avalon for best large sedan. None of that sounds even remotely "embarrassing" to me.

In 2006 the Toyota Camry was beat out in a 4-car comparison by the Accord, Fusion, and Hyundai Sonata (in other words, the Camry came in DEAD LAST). Now THAT is an embarrassment!!