8th Nov 2007, 10:28

How about let's look at those facts?

"GM attributed most of the third-quarter loss to a $38.6 billion noncash charge related to accumulated deferred tax credits in the U.S., Canada and Germany. Accounting rules require companies to write down the value of such credits if they have scant prospects for a return to profitability in the near term.

GM also reported a loss of $757 million from its 49 percent stake in GMAC Financial Services, due largely to losses at ResCap, GMAC's mortgage arm.

It was the second-worst quarterly net loss in U.S. corporate history, exceeded only by AOL Time Warner's $44.9 billion loss in the fourth quarter of 2002 when the value of the AOL operations was marked down, according to Howard Silverblatt, a senior index analyst for Standard & Poor's."

So in other words, the loss is actually closer to 42 Billion. Now you can look at it with as many pairs of rose-colored glasses as you want, but regardless, I fail to see how the 2nd worse quarterly loss in US history can be seen as anything remotely positive.

And you can keep waving that JD power report claiming that Buicks are better than Toyotas all you want... as I said- nobody believes nor has any reason to believe that the stodgy, frumpy looking old-people-mobiles that Buicks make are anything close to being on par with Camry quality.

8th Nov 2007, 11:41

More Toyota fans ranting things without offering any facts to back them up. People, just because you say it does not mean it is true. The fact that you like Toyota does not make it the best.

8th Nov 2007, 12:41

I remember the "stodgy" Buicks being a terror on the strip/street...1970 GSX 455 HO... then the Gran Nationals Turbo with slicks and racing chips... the Toyota Supra Twin Turbo stopped production wheres the fun in driving? The domestics are still making more and more great sports cars to enjoy.

8th Nov 2007, 14:04

And the domestic owners are not ranting? Go figure.

I rode in my friends 96 Buick with 70,000 miles; they bought off an old lady, and despite being driven very carefully, it already has two bad window motors and the front passenger door does not open from the inside. It is starting to rust all over. To top that the car is poorly constructed. To tell you the truth it is almost identical to my grandmothers 82 Century inside and out. This is how most GM/ Ford cars are.

8th Nov 2007, 14:41

No, I think you might be misinterpreting enthusiasm with actual experience. We who own Toyotas simply mention the ownership experience we've had with our vehicles, which by and large has been overly positive.

Anyhow, one question I have for all you so-called Buick fans is exactly how many Buicks do you actually see on the road? How about how many Buicks do you see being driven by GM's supposed target of former Lexus owners? How many do you see being driven by anyone under 55?

The answer is not many. Why? Because despite the reports of a small number of V6 2007 Camrys with a bad snap ring that has since been fixed, Camry is still the best-selling car in the U.S, they overall still have a stellar reliability track record, and lastly, GM and Ford are still haemorrhaging market share in North America and will continue to do so as long as they keep focusing on huge SUVs, trucks, and frumpy, shoddily built cars for old folks.

8th Nov 2007, 18:15

What defines best selling, and is it really totally about quality or being the best? Or is really just the capability to squeeze at least 4 people in a very small car, and have total infatuation with gas mileage/gas gauges because few are willing to give up and drive less?

Gas prices are very high and a definite influence on what people are buying. However there are still many remaining true automotive enthusiasts... who share the passion and thrill of driving with great handling and performance, and not isolated entirely from the road?

To me quality also is defined as quality of life. Americans have always had a passion for driving and the love of the automobile... I guess gas pricing and baby boomers becoming middle aged have also been a influence as well in many cases. You may sell more hamburgers than steak, but that does not indicate what people would actually really prefer driving if they were not being squeezed with gas/oil prices, adjustable mortgages and an overall sluggish economy.

I have owned small basic commuter cars, and have never been thrilled whatsoever, other than they got me to point A to B and I got out. But I could not wait to drive my American 4 speed big block V8 convertible whenever possible, even after driving a bland sedan 100 miles just prior on the same day. What would people honestly prefer to own, not what they actually own due to economical influences, may be a much better question.

9th Nov 2007, 11:55


Thanks for having an objective observation. I think the question as to what people would prefer to drive versus what they drive is a question with a bazillion reasons.

One thing that's fairly obvious is that Americans are driving further and further to work. I'm one of them- driving 100 miles every single day. This has an immediate impact on what types of vehicles I choose to drive. Due to my restricted amount of time due to my longer commutes, I want something that will be reliable and not spend time taking something to the shop or doing the repairs myself. Secondly, it is getting expensive enough to keep this small truck running. It gets around 30MPG, but with $4 a gallon gas, it now costs me around $50 a week to run. Not a big deal, but for those making say-35-50k a year, that would be more serious, especially if you drove a Ford F-250 dually with two tanks.

I'll admit that I drove a brand new Ford Mustang with a V8 for my wedding a year ago. Fastest, funnest car I've driven in years. But the thing seriously sucked down the gas. It used half a tank just getting to the wedding. That would put it at 15 MPG. So for a commute like mine, that is totally unacceptable.

On the other hand, if you live close to your job, perhaps such a car is worth it. Either that or buy a cheap 10 year old domestic V8 somethingoranother and drive it on weekends. I actually have a classic 55' Mercury that I drive occasionally, but as soon as gas got past $3 a gallon, it is truly a Sunday-only car.

9th Nov 2007, 14:52

14:41, to answer your question. Here in the Midwest, there are still a lot more Buicks on the road than Toyotas or Hondas. In fact Buick is the 4th most popular brand here in Indiana (behind Chevy, Ford, and Pontiac). Everything is relative. Obviously people on the coasts love their imports, but people here in the heartland still appreciate traditional American cars that don't handle like a golf cart and are bland as vanilla ice cream.

9th Nov 2007, 17:14

18:15 That is exactly the attitude that got all of us Americans in the sad situation that we are all in right now. It doesn't matter anymore what YOU or anyone else wants to drive. It never did. All that matters is that we're running out of oil; yes, people, it will actually happen, we will run out of oil. Meanwhile, the price of absolutely everything is going up because all of it is more expensive to transport.

Getting from A to B is all that a vehicle is made for. Period. Plan something to do, drive a fuel efficient car to wherever you're going, and have a good time when you get there. Those who spend all weekend every weekend waxing their precious Corvettes and then driving around the block in circles trying to impress people are the problem. All cars with V-8's should be outlawed. There is NO reason to drive a car with a V-8 in it, or even a V-6 that gets bad gas mileage. I can't wait until the government puts tighter restrictions on this kind of stuff, so that nobody can make a 300 horsepower passenger car anymore.