I own a 2000 Toyota Tundra Limited 4WD TRD. I am the original owner and it just turned 9 years old with 158,000 miles. This year (2009), I had to replace the first part, an O2 sensor. The only thing I have every done is regular oil changes, brakes, timing belt @ 100K, 1 battery, 2 sets of tires, PERIOD. Paint is perfect with zero rust. I have never heard of the issues brought up on this blog. In my book, it is the best truck money can buy.
"Well, 90,000 miles and 109,000 miles is not really that many, anymore. My 2002 Ford has 105,000 and still runs and drives like new, with no repairs ever. Sometimes vehicles are made with a certain lot-number of parts, and that can be why some of the same model have different problems if that run of parts was outside tolerance. Whereas the warped rotors would be a design problem from the engineers using a rotor too thin and small to stop the vehicle."
Japanese vehicles use grossly under-engineered parts, especially in the brake and suspension systems. I'm a mechanic and have had personal experience with what savvy mechanics refer to as the "Japanese Flimsies". The entire front subframe assembly on my Mazda (which was built in Japan before Ford took over and greatly improved the quality) sagged after only 84,000 miles to the point that aligning it was impossible without having the frame straightened. The steel members were roughly HALF the size of comparable domestic vehicles.
Our Honda Civic was a lesson in under-engineering. Virtually every component was under-sized, ESPECIALLY the brakes (which wore out twice as often as our domestic's brakes did). It was a poorly built and over priced lesson in what not to drive for us. We're back to domestic vehicles and never again plan to pay MORE for LESS by buying Japanese vehicles. One of our Fords was driven over 325,000 miles with less than $500 in total repairs. Neither of our Japanese cars even lasted 100,000 miles.
90,000 miles and 109,000 were the real numbers not rhetoric. They AREN'T unbelievably high like SOME of the claims on here, but they ARE high enough to represent a sample that should have shown some of the issues mentioned here. YES not all vehicles are precisely the same, but our experiences were thrown into the mix in an effort to further the size of the knowledge base.
However, the primary reason for the post 21:40 is because he only ever believes posts that either say that domestic vehicles are perfect (or close), or that Japanese vehicles are trouble prone (or absolute junk).
His posts are all over this site. He says:
He's retired.
He owns a Mustang, Fusion, (I think) a Trailblazer, etc.
He has owned +/-30 vehicles in 30 years.
I've done the math on his claims. He and his wife must drive close to 100,000 miles a year.
His (2) Japanese vehicles didn't last to 100,000 miles.
Some of his American vehicles lasted to over 350,000 miles.
He says he is a mechanic in nearly every post to add extra authority.
He also says he is a therapist.
I think he's also the one who claimed to be a scientist (is therapy a strict science?).
All of his American vehicles were without a single flaw to 100,000 miles.
He says that the Japanese companies' success is based strictly on "ad hype and myth" (with his therapist cred thrown in for extra weight).
So while we're trying to use this site for its intended purpose (to allow owners to relate their experiences with vehicles that they own... thus improving our general understanding and knowledge base of where problem areas exist in our vehicles), he is trying to use it as a rhetorical platform for his anti-Japanese commentaries.
So to you... we hear you. We know what you believe. Can we just continue to trade info without the pejorative comments being thrown in to spark debate?
"He's retired.
He owns a Mustang, Fusion, (I think) a Trailblazer, etc.
He has owned +/-30 vehicles in 30 years.
I've done the math on his claims. He and his wife must drive close to 100,000 miles a year.
His (2) Japanese vehicles didn't last to 100,000 miles.
Some of his American vehicles lasted to over 350,000 miles.
He says he is a mechanic in nearly every post to add extra authority.
He also says he is a therapist.
I think he's also the one who claimed to be a scientist (is therapy a strict science?).
All of his American vehicles were without a single flaw to 100,000 miles.
He says that the Japanese companies' success is based strictly on "ad hype and myth" (with his therapist cred thrown in for extra weight)."
You have SOME of it right.
I'm not technically retired. I work part time in the design field because I enjoy it. I possess a certification in therapy, but no longer work in that field. I AM a mechanic and have been for over 40 years (look up "mechanic" in a dictionary, it means one who works on mechanical things. NOT necessarily as a profession). I never SAID I was a scientist, though my knowledge of physics is far better than those who claim that an egg designed by Honda (the Civic) can crush a bowling ball designed by Ford (The Explorer).
I've stated REPEATEDLY that we own THREE TO FIVE vehicles at any given time. DO THE MATH. if we owned 30 vehicles over a period of 30 years (it's actually more like 40 vehicles over 38 years) any of those vehicles could have been kept for very long periods. Some we loved and kept a VERY long time (such as our 325,000 mile Ford, 277,000 mile Buick and 240,000 mile Dodge). I never kept ANY vehicle past 325,000 miles, though the Dodge was sold to a gentleman who drove it well beyond 300,000. It may have 350,000 by now, but I no longer own it) Our three imports WERE total garbage, and none made it to 100,000 miles. To me, that is pretty good evidence of poor quality, regardless of ad hype to the contrary.
Some vehicles we got tired of VERY quickly and traded at very low mileage. My wife loves new cars and routinely traded every 18 months or sooner until she got her 2003 Envoy (not Trailblazer) and fell in love with it. She even traded one car at only 800 miles because her friends made fun of it.
For the record, we currently own 4 vehicles. They are:
2007 Mustang Pony 4.0 V-6 (absolutely flawless)
2006 Ford Fusion (" ")
2003 GMC Envoy (perfect at 72,000 miles)
2001 Pontiac Grand Am (perfect at 80,000 miles)
We currently average about 5,000-7,000 miles a year or less, which means our current vehicles will last us for the rest of our lives or until we get tired of them. In the past we drove much more. I once worked 80 miles from home and put nearly 50,000 miles a year on that vehicle. It was a Ford. It never had a single problem...EVER.
Yes, I make lots of comments. I am a loyal American citizen and have no intention of sitting back and reading constant, unrelenting attacks on any and every product produced by American workers without speaking up. Americans, for some unfathomable reason (and it IS NOT better quality) seem bent on destroying their own country by destroying the backbone of our economy, which is our auto industry and related industries. Only 9 out of every 100 jobs in the manufacturing sector is related to Japanese cars. When we attack and malign U.S. companies we are destroying the security and incomes of 91 out of the 100 people involved in the auto industry in this country. Does this make ANY sense?? How can we justify allowing ad hype to undermine our country??
I stand by what I have said: NO domestic vehicle we have ever owned has EVER required anything but routine maintenance before 100,000.
No import my family (including my extended family) has ever owned has ever made 100,000 miles without major repairs except for my brother's Toyota (which was traded at 100,000 miles out of sheer boredom). Would I buy a NEW Japanese car? ABSOLUTELY NOT. 1) There is not a SHRED of proof that they are more reliable 2) I DON'T send my money to foreign countries while my own people suffer, and 3) They are far more expensive while offering less quality.
Would I buy a USED Japanese car? NO, not because that would hurt our economy (it wouldn't, an American dealer would get the money) but because they are grossly overpriced. My 2006 Fusion was bought with 18,000 miles on it. It is rated TWO FULL LEVELS above Camry and ONE FULL LEVEL above Accord in reliability. I bought it for $5,000-$7,000 LESS than either import. It has every option except the moon roof.
I have corresponded with Steve (steven@carsurvey.org) and he is fully aware of both my background and my vehicles. I've sent him pictures of some of my cars. He has chastened me for being a bit too aggressive in some of my comments and I have agreed to tone them down. What I WILL NOT do is sit back and read anti-American industry comments without responding.
" What I WILL NOT do is sit back and read anti-American industry comments without responding."
"I am a loyal American citizen and have no intention of sitting back and reading constant, unrelenting attacks on any and every product produced by American workers without speaking up."
Then you will note that my comment listing my and my father's experiences with our Tundras was an attempt to add more information to the pool and no anti-American diatribe. Your response was very anti-import and not very related to my comments at all. You were provoking debate -- not me. I simply posted our experiences... you responded by putting them down. In short, You weren't responding; You were provoking debate. You really can't honestly do that and then absolve yourself by saying that you were simply *responding* to some myth-driven hypemonger... because that simply didn't happen here.
"I've stated REPEATEDLY that we own THREE TO FIVE vehicles at any given time. DO THE MATH."
Math is no problem. If you had owned EVERY ONE of your 30+ vehicles AT THE SAME TIME and kept them all for 30+ years and put an average of 100,000 miles on each, that still works out to... CHA CHING! an average of 1 vehicle and 100,000 miles per year. IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY VEHICLES YOU OWN AT ONE TIME. The math works out to the same. The only way, then, for the mileage to work out is for you to only put on a few miles prior to sale or trade (which is what many of your critics have pointed out). But in many, many posts you've said the opposite... that you kept a number of them for 100,000, 200,000, and even 300,000 miles; numbers that have to be further defrayed over the remaining vehicles. Either you drove like a madman (270+ miles a day, 7 days a week, for 30 years), or you really didn't have the vehicles for very many miles before you traded them in (probably less than 30,000 miles on average -- not at all consistent with your claims). In this last post you said that you put on 50,000 one (particularly mobile) year. Your story doesn't add up mathematically unless you've learned the fine art of driving all 3 of your vehicles at the same time... now THAT'S multitasking!
As far as the Tundra is concerned: It was a good, mostly trouble-free vehicle for all of the time I owned it. I traded it at 109,000 miles. My dad still has his. It hasn't been to the shop for any kind of service. We just replaced his front brake pads for the first time at approx 90,000. Like I said, mine had a little brake shudder. His doesn't.
As far a American vehicles are concerned: I like them myself. I own 2 right now. They haven't been perfect, but not bad at all as long as routine maintenance is done.
"I AM a mechanic and have been for over 40 years (look up "mechanic" in a dictionary, it means one who works on mechanical things. NOT necessarily as a profession)."
As far as being a "mechanic" is concerned: I guess I'm a "mechanic" too, then. I grew up on a farm working on everything from equipment and skid steers to tractors, cars and trucks. I do much of my own routine maintenance as well. I just don't think that knowledge is sufficient to misinform others as to where my expertise lies. In other words, I'm no mechanic in the sense that they would understand it. That is not my profession, nor do I think that others should heed my opinions just because I can tear down a small-block Chevy. The pros can do it so much better.
"There is not a SHRED of proof that they are more reliable"
As far as there being "no shred of proof" that Japanese cars are more reliable: More reliable than what? A Fusion? Point made and understood. But if you mean ALL vehicles averaged, there are lots of shreds, both in terms of long and short term reliability. You may disagree with CR, JD Power, Truedelta, etc. but they comprise a type of "shred". Simply discarding them because you disagree isn't honest analysis. I still buy American for many of the other reasons you mentioned.
P.S. I would love to own a Mustang GT! What a blast!
"She even traded one car at only 800 miles because her friends made fun of it."
Was it an Aztek?
"Some vehicles we got tired of VERY quickly and traded at very low mileage. My wife loves new cars and routinely traded every 18 months or sooner until she got her 2003 Envoy (not Trailblazer) and fell in love with it."
Even if you traded several at low mileage, it wouldn't defray the high miles on the others + your claims elsewhere that you generally kept cars to over 100,000 miles (this suggests an average taken from your own claims). Your average still runs 2-3 times what your own numbers suggest. In other words, it would take something like 5.4 vehicles traded with 0 miles on the odometer just to defray the mentioned high mileage examples down to 100,000 miles. Plus if she kept them for only 18 months on average and they had over 100,000 miles at sale, she was a driving maniac. I'm using your own statements. You told others who said that you must not have kept vehicles for long (thus, they suggested, your reliability claims weren't very valid) that you kept most of them to over 100,000 miles and inferred that your ownership experience included most of those miles so it could comprise a representative sample (- the rotten Japanese examples of course). NOW you say that you traded many cars (that had been purchased new) with low mileage just because you were "tired" of them in an effort to satisfy mathematical reality. Your own statements are in contradiction. You can't have it both ways. You either owned many, many cars for very few miles (critics who said that you didn't own them long enough to get a representative sample are right), or you drove an average approaching 270 miles a day, 7 days a week, for 30 years (the mathematical gods are laughing).
21:55.
You are really stretching it with your assumptions. Yes, there are people here who post multiple times, including you and including me. I too could probably take a stab at making a summary of all your posts and twist your words around if I wanted to, but think doing things such as that are just a tactic for avoiding having to address tough issues.
You are way off in your post thinking the all of the things you mentioned came from one person, much like you simply cannot prove that Japanese vehicles are superior because of all the solid evidence to the contrary, including (but not limited to) Consumer Affairs:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html
I am glad 13:34 chimed in and responded to your erroneous comments, trying in the usual Toyota fan fashion to dismiss all the claims made by pro domestic people by attacking the commenter, instead of debating the the actual evidence presented to you about all of Toyota's problems.
To take a page out of your play book for a moment and pick apart your post instead of having a substantive discussion about cars, I am the person who mentioned they are a scientist, not 13:34. So, there is at least one of your assumptions that you are blatantly wrong about. I think 13:34 handily dismissed the rest.
Now, instead of attacking people, do you want to explain why Toyota is having so many low mileage engine failures, as I have yet to see a Toyota fan do? Then you might want to explain why Tacoma frames are snapping in half while other vehicles driving around in the exact same conditions are not. How about addressing all the Tundra brake and suspension problems? Yet again, how about the severe body flex in Tundra causing body panels to permanently bend out of shape just from driving down the road? Is this your idea of quality?
"NOW you say that you traded many cars (that had been purchased new) with low mileage just because you were "tired" of them in an effort to satisfy mathematical reality. Your own statements are in contradiction. You can't have it both ways. You either owned many, many cars for very few miles (critics who said that you didn't own them long enough to get a representative sample are right), or you drove an average approaching 270 miles a day, 7 days a week, for 30 years (the mathematical gods are laughing).'
I have NEVER, NOT ONE TIME, said that ALL of our vehicles were driven to 100,000 miles. First of all, our Japanese imports NEVER LASTED THAT LONG. Secondly, some of our favorite domestics were kept a VERY LONG TIME, such as 52 YEARS in one case. That one started out as my father's. It is a GM, and it is STILL in the family at 250,000+ miles. It is now relegated to shows and parades. It has had ONE ring job and has the ORIGINAL, UNTOUCHED automatic transmission.
Other family members have driven our vehicles as well. Our first new car as a married couple was a 1972 Plymouth. We also had at the same time, 3 other cars. The Plymouth was finally sold in 1987 with over 150,000 miles (and never ONE problem). We purchased 2 Fords in 1975/76. One of those was traded in 1993 with 325,000 miles. Also during that time we owned a VW as well (the engine blew up at 84,000 miles).
We have never traded a domestic vehicle due to ANY problems, regardless of age. Yes, my wife trades very often and at very low mileage. She has not put over 18,000 miles on ANY of her vehicles except her current Envoy since 1994. She just likes new cars and can afford them. I never said EVERY vehicle we EVER owned was driven 100,000 miles.
I realize import owners must grasp at any straw and try to twist any argument to justify destroying our economy by paying thousands more for products from foreign manufacturers. Go ahead and pay $5000 more for a Camry or $7000 more for an Accord. It's your money and your country you are destroying. I save enough on repairs and upkeep alone to take nice vacations in my trouble-free domestics, not to mention the tens of thousands we have saved over the years in purchase costs. I laugh loud and long at the "You'll be sorry. It will break down" rants. We waited 325,000 miles for our Ford to break down. It NEVER DID. We waited 277,000 miles for our Buick to "cost us a fortune". It never required ONE SINGLE REPAIR. We DID get a bit scared of having problems with our Dodge after 240,000 miles. After all, it HAD required 2 timing belts and one hose. We didn't take it on long trips after that, but the person who bought it is STILL driving it at over 300,000 miles.
Yes, the thought of expensive car repairs with our domestics just makes me SOOOO nervous. Why, we'll probably get scared and sell our Envoy at 500,000 miles.
"Now, instead of attacking people, do you want to explain why Toyota is having so many low mileage engine failures, as I have yet to see a Toyota fan do?"
THANK YOU!! I genuinely appreciate the support. Sadly, no import fan will EVER respond with anything beyond the "It's better because I SAY SO" and personal attacks that grab at straws.
I have yet to receive any answers to the Toyota engine failures and flimsy Tundra construction, nor do I expect to. What we've seen over the years in the way of explanations has caused fits of laughter. I'll never forget such import-fan gems as "Toyota didn't KNOW the bad cams were being installed" (implying that little engine-elves did it in the dark of night). Of course there is the classic "My Tacoma broke in half, but Toyota gave me another one". I've even asked for reports from people who bought a SECOND Tundra. Guess what?? NO ONE has responded to that one either!!
"You are really stretching it with your assumptions."
Is guessing an assumption? I said "I think" before my "assumption" of the scientist claim.
As for being a delusional Toyota fan... that's total bologna. I no longer own one and wouldn't buy a new one because I think that buying from an American company is very important these days (I'd buy a Ford F250). Mine was a reasonably good truck, however, even if some have had the problems you mentioned. As far as the "tough issues". The Tundra HAD A BRAKE ISSUE. Mine had it too... as I mentioned. I didn't have a suspension issue and wasn't a part of the related recall... BUT OBVIOUSLY MANY WERE. Mine didn't bend or flex enough to bend anything even though I occasionally overloaded it during my home's construction. I had no engine failure. I would NOT buy another because it is too lightly constructed for the types of work I occasionally do. I didn't like how it bounced off the snubbers with a load of lumber in the back.
You missed the obvious here... I posted my experience. He put it down as not being very relevant because it wasn't his idea of high mileage thanks to his Domestics. I'm tired of that approach and simply posted all I could remember of his posts (and a few of yours accidentally) so as to point out that his and clearly your posts are nearly pure rhetoric and not based on any Tundra experience. This was no ad homonym argument. It was an attempt to point out that we've heard it all before and would LIKE to get down to the brass tacks of this vehicle's strengths and weaknesses without endless over-broad "domestic is better" potshots from non-owners.
I'm done with you and I'm done with this site. I've posted about my vehicles and kept a running log to inform others about what goes wrong and right. That is the only thing that is of any value here. I don't care if you are one, two or 25 people. You are wrong-headed about just about every point that you make. You never question your sources so long as they enforce your preconceptions. So in your mind "consumer affairs=good" "everyone else=bad". I have questions of all of the sources but haven't dismissed ANY as irrelevant. It's funny, though, to see a "scientist" choose a source that is strictly anecdote over every survey that attempts to put controls on their sample. I've got my own set of preconceptions but am not married to them--still, to change them requires evidence; a point that seems lost on you guys. So I'm done with the constant bickering. Enjoy your new argument thread. I won't be reading it. Maybe you can get some poor, hapless Toyota guy to use your "half-vast" arguments in reverse. I bet you could squeeze another 1000+ comments out of this thread... a masochist might be car shopping somewhere.
I have had recent imports and rarely kept them beyond 36,000 miles, and have sold them, bought the same (Hondas) yet again as long as they were under 3 yrs-36,000 miles. My wife would get a break with her credit union and buy in September another new model. I also owned imports during the gas scare odd even gas line waits in the early 70's. The quality was good back then on imports.
As far as full size trucks, drive them and see if they work. I am still having great luck with my Silverado, have not posted for a while.
I just picked up a nice LS1 Corvette Convertible, an interesting change from driving my truck so much. The whole thing is driving should be a lot of fun, and even after driving for many years I still love it. My truck tows and is capable not a compromise as far as drivability, handling, strength, performance, comfort, ride and great warranty. Was a simple decision, but it involved driving not others without equivalent applications in mind.
If you never carry, tow you can perhaps make do with about anything if you like driving it.
"I would NOT buy another because it is too lightly constructed for the types of work I occasionally do. I didn't like how it bounced off the snubbers with a load of lumber in the back."
In all fairness to the Tundra, the films showing the body panels flapping wildly, the gas door slapping open and shut and the whole body twisting like rubber were filmed in VERY RUGGED driving that 99.99% of most trucks will never see. Of course that DOESN'T offset the fact that the Ford, Chevy and Dodge trucks in those same tests DIDN'T flop around like a wet noodle in those conditions. You're right, they are very lightly built with much less substantial materials throughout.
"a masochist might be car shopping somewhere."
I always give more credence to personal experiences than to either ad hype or silly "surveys" or foreign-biased magazines. This site probably saved me a lot of headaches. I was literally about to go pick up a new 2006 Hyundai Tiburon in the spring of 2006 when I ran across this site. After reading numerous accounts of Hyundai refusing to honor their highly touted warranty, I opted to wait and buy something else. I'm very thankful for the comments that helped me avoid an unpleasant buying experience. I'm glad people post such comments.
It's pretty easy to separate the BS from legitimate personal experiences. Pure opinion carries zero weight with me. Testimonials from actual owners do.
Blah, blah... Toyota makes better vehicles than Ford, Chevy, and Dodge, as well as everyone else with the possible exception of Honda. If you don't know this, you should. The rest of you are only kidding yourselves.
But not trucks. Test drive and see.