Comments: 1-15, 16-30, 31-45, 46-60, 61-75, 76-90, 91-105, 106-107
"6th Feb 2009, 16:22.
I put my money the opposite direction making real estate pay for my new cars. Rather than saving $14,000 to buy a new car... I took less than that to buy another rental property which my last one alone paid for 2 new vehicles in full. I drive new domestics. We all know where 401K's have gone and even CDs pay little safe... but very little."
Yeah, and we all know where real estate has gone, too. Probably those two new cars, which are rapidly depreciating, are all that's left...
"So he took his car to a muffler shop, and they told him there is no hanger. The pipe is just supposed to have a tight fit into the muffler to prevent the rotation, and yes they get this complaint all the time"
This is very typical of Toyota and Honda. In spite of the myth of "better quality", these vehicles cut every corner they can to save money. As a mechanic I've seen many, many examples of this cheap construction and materials on Japanese cars.
Our Honda had numerous problems due to cheap plastic clips breaking.
Our Mazda actually had the FRAME BEND just from the weight of the car because such flimsy metal was used.
Toyota has never used the expensive vibration isolation exhaust mountings domestics use.
My Ford Ranger had a thick piece of multi-layered rubber with thick steel mounting brackets at each end to hold up the tailpipe and allow it to move freely to avoid stress cracking. The Toyota Tacoma just sticks a tiny metal stem into a little round bracket. It allows only rotational movement, and costs about 1/10th of what the Ranger system costs to build.
USA Today just reviewed the new 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid, and this is what they had to say: (quoting word for word)
"OK, let's just get it out there: The 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid is the best gasoline-electric hybrid yet. What makes it best is a top-drawer blend of an already very good midsize sedan with the industry's smoothest, best integrated gas-electric power system. It is so well done that you have to look to the $107,000 Lexus LS 600h hybrid to come close."
I've driven all sorts of cars and owned imports and domestics. In 2009 Ford and GM are literally unmatched in reliability, build quality and value. That's why my wife and I each own 1 Ford and 1 GM vehicle. Unless import quality improves dramatically, there will never be another non-domestic in our stable of vehicles.
I believe the nationwide chain muffler shops have policies against improvised "make it work" kind of repairs for product liability reasons. An independent muffler shop is more likely to be willing to try the spot weld to fix the bad Camry exhaust pipe.
The easiest fix for the defective Camry exhaust (and its many other problems) is a new Ford Fusion.
14:57 Good point. Hadn't thought of that.
"The easiest fix for the defective Camry exhaust (and its many other problems) is a new Ford Fusion."
Gotta wonder if it's the cheapest fix, though. :)
"I believe the nationwide chain muffler shops have policies against improvised "make it work" kind of repairs for product liability reasons. An independent muffler shop is more likely to be willing to try the spot weld to fix the bad Camry exhaust pipe."
This is very true. When the exhaust pipe broke loose from the exhaust manifold on our Honda I had a terrible time getting ANYONE to touch it. The dealership wanted several hundred dollars to replace the entire system, which I refused to pay. I finally located a guy who restored cars and he gladly welded it back for me for $25.
It is amazing how far the gap is between what most Camry drivers think of their reliability and build quality, versus what anyone with two eyes can observe by just looking under a few Camrys in any parking lot.
The sagging exhaust pipes are quite prevalent, and they force you to slow down terribly when going over speed bumps. All I can think is that the Camry is sold exclusively into a very special demographic: People who consider driving over speed bumps at 15 miles per hour to be reckless behavior, only practiced by thrill seekers and madmen.
The Camry was built for an aging population with no desire for speed or performance handling. As such, it is not a bad car at all. My 85-year-old aunt owns one and loves it. Most Camry owners I know are older, retired people. For that demographic these are excellent vehicles. However, for some unfathomable reason, younger people with more lively driving styles have bought Camrys, and for these there are problems. Aggressive driving causes lots of issues in a car designed for senior citizens. As a senior citizen myself, I even find the Camry too bland and lacking in performance.
In the past few years I've noticed that these so called foreign automobile manufacturers that are known to be reliable are not. They're taking a page from the North American manufacturers and that is building a product that looks amazing, but will become a headache to own after 2 years.
"12th Feb 2009, 09:22.
In the past few years I've noticed that these so called foreign automobile manufacturers that are known to be reliable are not. They're taking a page from the North American manufacturers and that is building a product that looks amazing, but will become a headache to own after 2 years."
And it's ironic that the North American manufacturers are building vehicles that are as good as Japanese used to be, while the Japanese marques have dropped in quality with higher production rates.
"They're taking a page from the North American manufacturers and that is building a product that looks amazing, but will become a headache to own after 2 years."
My oldest GM vehicles turns 9 years old this year. My other GM vehicle will be 7 years old. TOTAL repairs since buying new for BOTH vehicles has been $10 (for a light bulb). Just when are these "headaches" supposed to start?? I'll probably grow bored with these cars and trade by then, although we DID keep our "crappy", "headache" of a Ford for 300,000+ miles. It did cost a tad more in repairs. About $300 over 17 years.
"My oldest GM vehicles turns 9 years old this year. My other GM vehicle will be 7 years old. TOTAL repairs since buying new for BOTH vehicles has been $10 (for a light bulb)."
My oldest GM vehicle (95 Chev Sportvan 350) is now 14 years old. Total repairs since buying it are now in excess of $2500.00. It has 130,000 miles on the original engine and transmission. There are a number of problems that remain unaddressed because they aren't big enough problems to be worth the thousands involved in fixing them (main seal leak, oil pan leak, other odds and ends). It has been a reasonably good vehicle because nothing has been so serious that it was kept out of service for more than one day at a time. However, my experience serves to add to a higher average than your $10 figure. I also had a Toyota Tundra that was 8 years old and had 109,000 miles on it when I sold it last year. It cost me a total of $500 for a water pump that was starting to fail and $15 for the dome light that wouldn't stay up on the ceiling.
"I also had a Toyota Tundra that was 8 years old and had 109,000 miles on it when I sold it last year. It cost me a total of $500 for a water pump that was starting to fail and $15 for the dome light that wouldn't stay up on the ceiling"
To me this sounds VERY expensive for only 109,000 miles. I guess to an import owner it sounds cheap, but none of my domestics has EVER required this much in repairs in that short a time. There seems to be a major misconception that domestic vehicles require lots of expensive repairs. I've never had even ONE repair on any of mine that cost $500.
"To me this sounds VERY expensive for only 109,000 miles. I guess to an import owner it sounds cheap, but none of my domestics has EVER required this much in repairs in that short a time. There seems to be a major misconception that domestic vehicles require lots of expensive repairs. I've never had even ONE repair on any of mine that cost $500."
Well, the $500 included labor. Plus that was just my best recollection -- but I doubt it was any less. It raises the average $$ spent when compared to the ramblings of the "Toyotas are perfect" crowd.
As far as that seeming cheap "to an import owner". Well... it WAS less than the Chevy. Does $2500 sound cheap to you? You must have missed that... somehow. But NO repair is a good repair. Plus, the Chevy only has 130,000 miles on it too, so while it is significantly older, $2500.00 is also significantly more for a not-dissimilar mileage (clearly not ALL domestics are perfect).
The biggest single repair was the starter, which required replacement at a cost -- parts and labor -- of approx. $900. Furthermore the Chevy is using about a quart of oil every 2000 miles and wanders a bit due to wear in some steering ball joints. Not bad... obviously it can run that way for years. But the Toyota wasn't using any oil at all and its steering was still tight.
In case you think I abuse vehicles, the Toyota and the Chevy were owned concurrently and received the same care: oil changes every +/-3000 and got chassis lubes at the same time. Also other appropriate maintenance was carried out and was not included in repair costs.
Between the two, the Toyota was more reliable but both have served me well.
By the way, "import owner" isn't a pejorative and my comment was intended to be informational and not intended to further this ridiculous, pointless, Too-much-bluff, too-little-data debate. Just because my Chevy had more problems than my Toyota doesn't prove that this is always the case. Its much too small a sample from which to draw a conclusion. I've had good luck with foreign and domestic vehicles with the foreign ones having a slight edge in terms of repair costs. That's just my experience and I won't bully others here or elsewhere to buy what *I* like.
On a side note: I sometimes wonder if there are some who just sit here on these forums agitating debate by making unsupported comments on both sides of the same issue just to keep us talking. They make the same exact list of claims that are batted down on every forum only to be resurrected on the next.