Comments: 1-15, 16-30, 31-45, 46-60, 61-75, 76-90, 91-105, 106-107
All my friends who have owned Toyota's have had nothing but problems with them. The new Malibu is a much better buy.
Lets see we buy 2-3 new vehicles at a time over the 30 years discussed, which we have consistently done, not 1 at a time. It's not one a year as it's implied at least with us. I have actually driven and owned more personally since 1969. Our ratio however were more new GM domestics and over a dozen new Honda-Acuras. It may be harder to condemn or challenge a long term mixed import-domestic ownership. Compare same mileage vehicles, same drivers, repair costs and owning first hand, it gives the very best comparison level of all, and is the most telling on what to buy again.
08:44 Exactly. If these Ford and Chevy owners actually owned a Toyota at some point, they'd never drive a Ford or Chevy again. Who would?
"#1 So... he had 33 vehicles in 30 years. It would seem unlikely that ANY of his vehicles made 100,000 miles before trade in."
I've REPEATEDLY stated time and time and time AGAIN, as a car enthusiast and mechanic, my family and I have ALWAYS owned AT LEAST 3 and often 4 cars (occasionally MORE) AT A TIME. Just like requests for frequency of repair records, this information never seems to sink in with the import crowd.
ALL of the vehicles we've owned have been METICULOUSLY serviced (I'm a MECHANIC, my FATHER was a mechanic) and driven in exactly the same manner.
A list of the cars my family (and me before I married) has owned is as follows:
1949 Ford Custom* Flathead 6
1950 Ford Custom* Flathead V-8
1951 Ford Custom* Flathead V-8
1959 Pontiac Bonneville Vista* 389 4-barrel
1960 Studebaker Lark* Flathead 6
1960 Dodge Seneca (Dart) ** 225 Slant 6
1965 Ford Falcon Sprint* 289 V-8
1966 Mustang* 289 V-8
1972 Plymouth Duster** 225 Slant 6
1972 Plymouth Duster* 318 V-8
1974 Ford Torino** 351 Cleveland
1975 Ford Granada*** 200 6
1976 Ford Mustang* 2.3 4
1977 Buick LaSabre*** 3.8 V-6
1980 Ford Mustang 2.3 4
1981 Ford Escort 4
1984 Dodge Shelby Daytona* 2.2 Turbo 4
1984 VW 4
1985 Ford Mustang LX** 5.0 V-8
1985 Mazda RX-7 Wankel rotary (i.e. a BOAT ANCHOR)
1988 Dodge Daytona* 2.6 silent-shaft 4
1990 Mustang LX 5.0 V-8
1990 Honda Civic 4
1990 Dodge Omni*** 2.2 non-turbo 4
1992 Toyota Celica* 4
1992 Ford Ranger 2.3 4
1993 Ford Ranger* 2.3 4
1994 Ford Ranger 2.3 4
1996 Ford Mustang V-6
1998 Ford Explorer* V-6
2001 Ford Explorer 4.0 V-6
2001 Ford Focus 4
2001 Dodge Dakota 4
2001 Pontiac Grand Am "Quad 4"
2003 GMC Envoy 275 hp. I-6
2006 Ford Ranger 3.0 V-6
2006 Ford Fusion 2.3 4
2007 Ford Mustang 4.0 V-6
2008 Lincoln MKZ 3.5 V-6.
The asterisks indicate hundreds of thousands of miles. I rounded off after 250,000 to 3 asterisks, but the 1975 Granada actually had 325,00+ miles when traded. You'll note the Toyota Celica DID make 100,000. It was not a bad car, but it was by NO STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION any more reliable than ANY of the domestics, and routine service and minor repairs were more expensive than the domestics.
Actually, this is MORE than 33, but I had to actually go back and count them up. The '49. '50 and '51 Fords, the '59 Pontiac, '60 Studebaker and '60 Dodge were all bought when I was a kid living at home (the '49 Ford was given to me by my mechanic father when I was 13). The first three Fords were all owned at pretty much the same time, and the ownership of the '59 Pontiac was also when I was in junior high. The Lark and Dodge I got when I was in senior high school. These were ALL bought used of course.
NONE of the domestics were sold or traded due to any mechanical problems. As you'll note, we no longer keep ANY of our cars over 100,000 miles. This is for two reasons:
1) We can now afford new cars whenever we get bored with what we have, and
2) We are semi-retired and drive much less now. We currently own 4 cars because I LIKE cars. That has been the case for well over 30 years.
The total repair bill on every domestic shown above would not be over a TOTAL of $3000. The repairs bills on the Mazda and Honda alone were that much. Now tell me why I need to waste my hard-earned American money sending it to a company based in Japan.
"I've REPEATEDLY stated time and time and time AGAIN, as a car enthusiast and mechanic, my family and I have ALWAYS owned AT LEAST 3 and often 4 cars (occasionally MORE) AT A TIME. Just like requests for frequency of repair records, this information never seems to sink in with the import crowd."
Well, unless you're identifying yourself subliminally, you'll have to forgive my ignorance. I'm not perfectly sure if you're one poster or another.
As far as frequency of repair records go... truedelta.com has numbers. Consumer Reports has symbols based on averages. Pick your poison. Do you want me to plagiarize from them or are you willing to navigate on over there (truedelta.com) yourself?
As far as calling me "the import crowd"...I currently own three vehicles; An 08 Nissan built here; An 07 Jeep built in America by an American company; A full size 95 Chevy van built in America by an American company. I prefer to buy American when the "shoe fits". I would likely have purchased a Malibu if the deal had been any good. Because I have a family, my next car will possibly be a Chevy Malibu or Ford Fusion hybrid. The Fusion looks like a very interesting car that has a great track record in normal guise. The new Taurus looks great too. I'm perfectly fine with rewarding excellence like that.
"Now tell me why I need to waste my hard-earned American money sending it to a company based in Japan."
You don't. Thanks for the list. Not exactly what I asked for, but... much better than what I had. Again... too few imports to be conclusive but fully understandable that you don't buy more if you're telling us the truth. Again, thanks for the info.
"08:44 Exactly. If these Ford and Chevy owners actually owned a Toyota at some point, they'd never drive a Ford or Chevy again. Who would?"
Well, ME for one. We've had Toyota and Honda vehicles. That's why we now own only domestics. Repair issues on newer Japanese cars makes them unwise for long-term use.
I don't mean to nitpick, but I would not utilize the term "car enthusiast" and Camry in the same sentence. Perhaps small practical basic family transportation would suffice.
I'm not sure if owning over 30 cars is exactly proof of how "good" something is. To me, it would seem that if you're buying cars for their longevity, then the fewer you can own due to their durability, the better. I've been driving now for 22 years. In that time, I've owned 2 vehicles. TWO. The first was a used Toyota Celica ($3,500) and the second a 96' Tacoma $11,500) which I still have. Basically, $14,000 spread over 22 years. Had I bought a new car every single year, I would not have any retirement, savings, likely be in debt, and not have cash in hand to buy a house for my Wife and I.
I also believe in keeping a vehicle for a long time and saving money. I've been driving my 1973 Dodge since 1987.
In 1996 I bought a 1985 Dodge truck with 165,000 miles on it and drove that until 2007, when it had 260,000 miles on it. It still ran fine, but it had gotten too rusty. That's two vehicles in 20 years, and one I'm still driving.
In 2007 I bought a 2002 Ford for $3,500 with 80,000 miles and it now has 102,000. We'll see if it goes as long as my old Dodges. With the money I saved by driving older vehicles, I paid off my house 20 years early, funded my Roth IRA, maxed out my 401k contribution, and still save extra in mutual funds.
Doesn't have to be Japanese vehicles, but used vehicles are a better value. My personal preference used to be Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth but I finally decided to give Ford a chance and have been pleased thus far. I'll be willing to give Dodge a chance again if I need a car in a few years, though.
"I'm not sure if owning over 30 cars is exactly proof of how "good" something is. To me, it would seem that if you're buying cars for their longevity, then the fewer you can own due to their durability, the better. I've been driving now for 22 years. In that time, I've owned 2 vehicles"
I suppose if all a car is to a person is just point A to point B transportation, then keeping the one same vehicle for decades is quite sensible. For me it would be unbearable boredom. I love cars, enjoy driving different cars (and trucks) and enjoy modifying them. We usually have 3-5 cars at any given time. Some we use as basic transportation and keep for long periods (over 300,000 miles in one case, over 200,000 in a number of cases).
I like being able to switch from my quiet and smooth Fusion or souped-up Grand Am to my rough-riding but very fun Mustang whenever the urge hits. If I need to haul something, the GMC suffices nicely, as well as being a great vehicle for long trips. The furry dog gets hauled in the Grand Am because it is our oldest vehicle. After 8 years it is flawless. It is a "keeper". In all probability the Fusion will be kept for a long time as well. Some cars we keep 12-18 years, some we tire of and trade after literally a few months. My wife once traded one after THREE WEEKS!! I tend to want new sporty cars more often, though a couple of Mustangs did get kept for over 100,000 miles (and with ZERO problems).
Owning a large number of vehicles is the ONLY way to really acquire honest, hands-on experience with cars. If 30+ domestics have all been trouble-free, and our 3 imports (and all of them WERE imports. Two were made in Japan and one in Germany) were all less than perfect (uhhh... that is REALLY putting it nicely) then that says more to me than all the ad hype, biased magazine "surveys" and import owner ranting in the world. Someone who has only owned TWO cars has virtually NO experience AT ALL in determining how good any cars are. If you were having brain surgery, would you choose a surgeon who had only performed two surgeries (and botched one) or a surgeon who had performed 30+ successful surgeries. I KNOW which one I'd choose!!
I put my money the opposite direction making real estate pay for my new cars. Rather than saving $14,000 to buy a new car... I took less than that to buy another rental property which my last one alone paid for 2 new vehicles in full. I drive new domestics. We all know where 401K's have gone and even CDs pay little safe... but very little.
(Camry) "small practical basic family transportation would suffice."
Small: Camry is pushing the top end of the midsize category.
Practical: Yes, typical of the segment.
Basic: No more so than any other midsizer and better than some. Not too many years ago most midsizers would have been called luxury cars. Some offer two zone automatic climate control, heated mirrors, heated seats, leather interiors, powerful engines, smooth rides, and power features (windows, locks, mirrors, seats).
Has anyone else noticed the problem with Camry exhaust pipes? On about 1 out of 5 they rotate out of position so they hang down within about 4 inches of the ground. You don't have to get down and look under the car to see this. You can spot it when you are driving behind them. It is especially easy if you are in the lane to the left and behind them.
I especially notice this because I live close to a school and there are several speed humps in the road nearby. At least once a week I hear the loud scraping sound of an exhaust pipe dragging across the top of a speed hump, and when I look over, it is always a Camry.
The other thing I notice is that a lot of Camry owners have adapted and they slow way down, almost to a stop when they drive over speed humps. If you have ever been driving down a road with speed humps, and the car in front of you unexpectedly slowed down to almost zero miles an hour, and you had to slam on your brakes to keep from rear ending them, chances are it was a Camry. I also see this with Camrys turning off a busy roads onto side streets that have dips along the side for water drainage.
Today I saw a beautiful red brand new Camry with temporary tags indicating the car had been bought just yesterday. (I have to say the red is quite pretty.) And the exhaust pipe was hanging down.
One of my co-workers has a Camry with the rotated down exhaust pipe. We get along pretty well so I told him his pipe was out of position. I was thinking it would be like my old Dodge Dart. There was a small hanger that held the pipe in position, and if it broke, you just replaced it and got the pipe back in position. And I grew up on a farm, so a hanging down exhaust pipe is something you always have to fix right away, or eventually you go down a dirt road that rips the muffler off your car. I know my co-worker lives at the end of a dirt road out in the mountains.
So he took his car to a muffler shop, and they told him there is no hanger. The pipe is just supposed to have a tight fit into the muffler to prevent the rotation, and yes they get this complaint all the time, but there really is no fix. They can replace the pipe, but they won't guarantee that it won't just rotate out of position again.
"my rough-riding but very fun Mustang"
Those ARE a blast :) You should try a Wrangler sometime for some rough-riding but awesome off-road fun. If you like to travel, take the Mustang on a trip to Ouray, Co. and take a Jeep tour. I'd love to own a Mustang too but the kids need back doors because they're still in safety seats.
I'm not much for the debate over reliability between American and Japanese vehicles. I've owned 6 American made vehicles: an 07 Wrangler (thus my comments), a 95 Chevy van, a 95 Buick Regal, a 96 Chevy Corsica, a 95 Pontiac Grand Am, and a 99 Saturn SL2. The van was getting expensive to maintain but other than that all were reliable.
I've also owned 6 Japanese vehicles: an 81 Honda Accord, an 85 Honda Civic, a 94 Honda Civic, an 04 Honda Civic, a 2000 Toyota Tundra, and an 08 Nissan Altima. The 85 Civic was a problem because I bought it used without first taking it to a mechanic. Its exterior and interior were perfect. The engine was worn out. It was using a quart of oil every 500 miles and had no compression. It looks like the girl who owned it before had changed the oil every 25000 miles whether it needed it or not. Otherwise my Japanese vehicles have been very reliable too.
The difference between American and Japanese cars has been getting narrower in virtually all recent surveys. Plus any remaining difference is mitigated by the superior warranties being offered by the domestics. So buy what you like. Likely-as-not whatever you buy will serve you well.
Yes its true that past Japanese vehicles have fared better in reliability surveys, but right now in several categories American vehicles edge out their Japanese counterparts. Large pickups (check truedelta). Mid sizers are another area where the American vehicles are at least as reliable. The Japanese seem to have the edge in compacts and subcompact cars (although I'd love to own a Chevy Cobalt SS). In large cars, the Japanese do well. Especially if they are luxury cars like Lexus, Infinity, or Acuras. Cadillac seems to be making inroads with the CTS. At least past models have had average ratings.
So I'm not going to tell anyone what they should buy. This is especially true if it runs afoul of their beliefs. If buying American is a patriotic issue for you, then by all means do it. If you have had bad experiences with products from a region, don't buy them.
Still, you really ought to be circumspect enough to admit that your experiences may be a fluke, even if they comprise 100+ vehicles. Its pure myopia to assume that because you have had good or bad experiences with a type of vehicle, that the 100s of millions of other people will have the same. We are specks, and our experiences, no matter how momentous they are to us, are paltry drips in the ocean thereof. Its only when our experiences are compiled that patterns start to emerge. THAT'S why surveys ARE important. THAT'S why I bring them up. THAT'S why I'll defend CR, Truedelta.com, J.d.Powers, etc. And THAT'S why their results are more valuable than individual experiences.
This site (Car Survey) is valuable in that it provides owners and prospective owners with some idea of what problems one might have with a particular vehicle. It isn't designed to tell you how reliable a vehicle might be, however. For example, if you read the Yugo reviews on here, you might get the impression that they're a rather decent little car. The reality is, of course, that the Yugo was the single worst vehicle in terms of reliability, design, and function of any released in the past 30 years or so. That is the weakness of this format. Some begin to believe that reliability data is what this site is all about. This site is designed to be a window on individual experiences -- not a controlled compilation of data. A vehicle that isn't particularly troublesome may have quite a number of entries detailing problems simply because the vehicle is a strong seller -- or whatever... it can be a total anomaly. Likewise a troublesome car (like the Yugo) can seem pretty darn decent when the truth is rather the opposite. This site is extremely valuable as a pathway for conversation between owners and others to expand their knowledge base of the individual strengths and weaknesses of various models and vehicle types.
But I digress...#$%^ :)
"They can replace the pipe, but they won't guarantee that it won't just rotate out of position again."
Seems like a spot weld would take care of it doesn't it? I also grew up on a farm so my immediate response to this situation is... I think I could make it work. It really doesn't seem like they (the muffler shop) was trying very hard.